God the Father - Jehovah, Jesus Christ - Jehovah

[ruthiechan]

Okay, I need a little help here.

I understand that we are taught that after the fall, man no longer had direct dealings with the Father, that all dealings with him were made through Jesus Christ. We also believe that Jesus Christ will at times speak as though he is the Father. We believe that Jehovah is Jesus Christ. Why do we believe all this? I haven't been able to find where those beliefs come from.

I've been having Bible study sessions with the Jehovah's Witnesses (No worries, my testimony of the Church of Jesus of Latter-day Saints remains intact). They believe that Jehovah is God the Father, not Jesus Christ. They also believe that if Lord is capitalized then it references God the Father, and if it's lower case it references the Son.

I went researching this issue, but I found myself even more confused. In Moses it seems pretty clear that it's God the Father speaking. But in Abraham it's not so obvious as to who is speaking. In chapter 2 verse 8 it says, "My name is Jehovah, and I know the end from the beginning; therefore my hand shall be over thee." Well, who is speaking? The Father or the Son?

In Exodus 3:14 it says, "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."
Then in John 8:58 it says, "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

So, that makes it somewhat clear as to who was speaking in the Old Testament, but it doesn't solve the puzzle of the name Jehovah.

In the topical guide it has some references.
God the Father - Elohim/Eloheim.
Where does Elohim come from? Elohiym appears to be a transliteration of God. Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

God the Father - Jehovah.
Jesus Christ - Jehovah.
Okay, that right there caused confusion and the scriptures referenced have not helped me figure it out.

Jehovah means "the existing One."
It also appears 6519 times in the Hebrew concordance of the King James Version, but it's all translated as LORD, sometimes with God following after.
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

So, is the name Jehovah just another word for Lord or God or is it as the JW's say, that the translators were simply following orthodox Jewish tradition?

Halp.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

Try reading the Old Testament in Hebrew. No seriously, it makes things a LOT more clear. Parallel Hebrew Old Testament

Elohim is the plural form of the word Eloh, which is POSSIBLY a derivative of the word El which means "God". While latter-day prophets have told us this is the name of God the Father, it may be more applicable as a title than an actual name. El is used regularly throughout the scriptures in names - IsraEL, LamuEL, SamuEL, IshmaEL, NathaniEL, etc.

Jehovah is an Anglicized version of the German word Iehovah, translated from the Hebrew tetragrammaton YHWH (YHVH), most likely pronounced as Yahweh and most likely a derivative of the Hebrew phrase "I Am", a first person point of view statement of existence. The original pronunciation and meaning of YHWH is lost due to a Hebrew proscription against speaking (and eventually against writing) the name of God.

First off, God the Father has ALWAYS used YHWH as his intermediary with this earth, even before the fall. Even in the creation, YHWH did the actual work on behalf of the Father. Secondly, The fall of Adam was not a complete separation from God (YHWH), but a removal from the presence of God. The best analogy here might be parents kicking their adult child out of the house. You don't live with them anymore, but you still get phone calls (prayer) whenever you want and the occassional holiday get together. Also, there are several instances throughout scripture where God the Father comes to visit - Steven in the NT and Joseph Smith among others. Therefore the "seperation" wasn't a complete and total seperation from any and all contact with the Father (or with YHWH), but was a removal from His presence. Where before the fall Adam had the full-time companionship of YHWH, after the fall he (and we) could only have the full-time companionship of the Holy Ghost.

The translators of the Old Testament were men and did not have spiritual revelation to help them in their translation and many of the punctuations are largely arbitrary. In many instances where the name of God (YHWH) was written in the original texts, it was replaced with the word "Adonai" by Hebrew scribes (due to the proscription mentioned above). "Adonai" was then translated into the KJV as "Lord" (usually with caps, but not always). Therefore most instances of the word "Lord" in the OT refer to YHWH aka Jehovah. Occassionally in the OT the word "Lord" refers to earthly kings and occassionally (often written as "The Lord God") refers to God the Father where it was translated from the Hebrew "Elohim", but the KJV translators weren't always consistent.

So read the OT in the original Hebrew. That way you can see where Elohim and YHVH are used and know which verses refer to which member of the Godhead. I would also suggest doing a search on LDS.org for articles that mention the names Elohim and Jehovah, I know there are tons of expositions by modern prophets regarding just this question. And lastly, you should read Jesus the Christ by Apostle James E. Talmage - the guy was probably one of the most scholarly of modern prophets.

Oh, and finally. As far as where our beliefs concerning Jehovah and Jesus Christ come from, visit the LDS.org page on Jesus Christ and read the additional materials and references they list there. Also read the D&C, as that is just chock full of Christ himself answering your question.

[Just_A_Guy]

There was quite a bit of disagreement in the early church about which member of the Godhead could be identified as Jehovah. To remedy this, the First Presidency put out the following in 1916:

The Father and the Son: A Doctrinal Exposition

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

Originally Posted by Just_A_Guy

There was quite a bit of disagreement in the early church about which member of the Godhead could be identified as Jehovah. To remedy this, the First Presidency put out the following in 1916:

The Father and the Son: A Doctrinal Exposition

Dude that article is way cool..... That's one to print out and tuck in your scriptures.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by ruthiechan

Okay, I need a little help here.

I understand that we are taught that after the fall, man no longer had direct dealings with the Father, that all dealings with him were made through Jesus Christ. We also believe that Jesus Christ will at times speak as though he is the Father. We believe that Jehovah is Jesus Christ. Why do we believe all this? I haven't been able to find where those beliefs come from.

I've been having Bible study sessions with the Jehovah's Witnesses (No worries, my testimony of the Church of Jesus of Latter-day Saints remains intact). They believe that Jehovah is God the Father, not Jesus Christ. They also believe that if Lord is capitalized then it references God the Father, and if it's lower case it references the Son.

I went researching this issue, but I found myself even more confused. In Moses it seems pretty clear that it's God the Father speaking. But in Abraham it's not so obvious as to who is speaking. In chapter 2 verse 8 it says, "My name is Jehovah, and I know the end from the beginning; therefore my hand shall be over thee." Well, who is speaking? The Father or the Son?

In Exodus 3:14 it says, "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."
Then in John 8:58 it says, "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

So, that makes it somewhat clear as to who was speaking in the Old Testament, but it doesn't solve the puzzle of the name Jehovah.

In the topical guide it has some references.
God the Father - Elohim/Eloheim.
Where does Elohim come from? Elohiym appears to be a transliteration of God. Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

God the Father - Jehovah.
Jesus Christ - Jehovah.
Okay, that right there caused confusion and the scriptures referenced have not helped me figure it out.

Jehovah means "the existing One."
It also appears 6519 times in the Hebrew concordance of the King James Version, but it's all translated as LORD, sometimes with God following after.
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

So, is the name Jehovah just another word for Lord or God or is it as the JW's say, that the translators were simply following orthodox Jewish tradition?

Halp.

The first point of upmost importance is the fall of man. Because of the fall of man everything changed. Note that previous to the fall all references to G-d are plural and all references after the fall all references to G-d are singular. Without a complete understanding of the fall it is unlikely that important doctrines like the G-dhead have a basis of understanding.

Prior to the fall G-d the Father was the Suzerain of the kingdom of heaven. He is and was the father of our spirits as well as the father of all the divine spirit children that included Jesus Christ, who is also known as the Word and Jehovah. When Adam fell the fall took effect on all of the spirits of man and we all become fallen. The very definition if the fall includes our “excommunication” from our Father in Heaven and his kingdom of heaven. We became outcasts and therefore were void of any means of “works of divine eternal merit”. Everything we are capable of will eventually decay and come to not.

If, as many religions falsely teach, we could have any intercourse or connection to G-d the Father – then two things could not be true. One – we really did not fall and we could accomplish something of merit – proof is we could merit an eternal relationship with our divine and eternal Father in heaven. Second we would not need a “Savior”, “Redeemer” or “Mediator” that could merit through his mercy, divine treasures for us.

So it is quite simple – if any ancient prophet (like Moses) spoke with Jehovah and Jehovah is the Father of our spirits then we did not really fall and require a Mediator.

But there is a second part. For fallen man, Jesus Christ (or Jehovah) made of his kingdom a means that we could be governed while in our fallen state by him; both to govern us and to be a mediator for us with the Father of our spirits from whom we are fallen and cannot associate with without Jesus Christ. In his kingdom Jesus is the father – meaning that he is the father of covenants. By accepting his kingdom and bowing before him in the manner of Baptism, as he commanded, we become, through his mercy, children of his covenant.

Once we become born again through baptism and enlightened by the Holy Ghost (which is a gift) we become Saints of the covenant and through that covenant we overcome the fall and can merit (lay up in store) Treasures in the kingdom of G-d the Father as commanded through Jesus Christ.

The Traveler

[volgadon]

Umm, reading the OT in Hebrew WITHOUT knowing Hebrew does not make things much clearer.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

Originally Posted by Traveler

The first point of upmost importance is the fall of man. Because of the fall of man everything changed. Note that previous to the fall all references to G-d are plural and all references after the fall all references to G-d are singular. Without a complete understanding of the fall it is unlikely that important doctrines like the G-dhead have a basis of understanding.

Prior to the fall G-d the Father was the Suzerain of the kingdom of heaven. He is and was the father of our spirits as well as the father of all the divine spirit children that included Jesus Christ, who is also known as the Word and Jehovah. When Adam fell the fall took effect on all of the spirits of man and we all become fallen. The very definition if the fall includes our “excommunication” from our Father in Heaven and his kingdom of heaven. We became outcasts and therefore were void of any means of “works of divine eternal merit”. Everything we are capable of will eventually decay and come to not.

If, as many religions falsely teach, we could have any intercourse or connection to G-d the Father – then two things could not be true. One – we really did not fall and we could accomplish something of merit – proof is we could merit an eternal relationship with our divine and eternal Father in heaven. Second we would not need a “Savior”, “Redeemer” or “Mediator” that could merit through his mercy, divine treasures for us.

So it is quite simple – if any ancient prophet (like Moses) spoke with Jehovah and Jehovah is the Father of our spirits then we did not really fall and require a Mediator.

But there is a second part. For fallen man, Jesus Christ (or Jehovah) made of his kingdom a means that we could be governed while in our fallen state by him; both to govern us and to be a mediator for us with the Father of our spirits from whom we are fallen and cannot associate with without Jesus Christ. In his kingdom Jesus is the father – meaning that he is the father of covenants. By accepting his kingdom and bowing before him in the manner of Baptism, as he commanded, we become, through his mercy, children of his covenant.

Once we become born again through baptism and enlightened by the Holy Ghost (which is a gift) we become Saints of the covenant and through that covenant we overcome the fall and can merit (lay up in store) Treasures in the kingdom of G-d the Father as commanded through Jesus Christ.

The Traveler

Actually Moses did speak to God the Father (of our spirits). Or at least Elohim was present at the burning bush incident. See Exodus 3:6
"6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God."

Hebrew transliterated:
3:6 VY'aMUr 'aNKY 'aLHY 'aBYK 'aLHY 'aBUrHM 'aLHY YTShChQ V'aLHY Y'yQB VYSThUr MShH PhNYV KY YUr'a MHBYT 'aL-H'aLHYM.

The "aLHYM" at the end is Elohim. The word El for God is also present transliterated above as "'aLHY". Thus the verse can be translated in English to read:
"6 Moreover he said, I am the God (El) of thy father, the God (El) of Abraham, the God (El) of Isaac, and the God (El) of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon Elohim."
However in previous and subsequent verses, most of the interaction between Moses and God is between Moses and YHWH (Jehovah/Christ).
Actually, Elohim can be seen to make appearances all throughout the chapter - Verses 4, 11, 13, 14, and 15. Also the whole conversation takes place on the Mountain of Elohim (verse 1).

God the Father was also present in a vision given to Stephen: Acts 7
"56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."

And in the first vision given to Joseph Smith:
Joseph Smith—History 1
"17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! "

LDS.org:
"Because Adam and Eve transgressed this command and partook of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they were cast out from the presence of the Lord."

Also, in D&C:
Doctrine and Covenants 29
"41 Wherefore, I, the Lord God, caused that he should be cast out from the Garden of Eden, from my presence..."

It's plain here that A: the spiritual death refers to our removal from the presence of God and does NOT mean a complete absence of God from our lives. And B: that the God who's presence we are separated from is the God speaking in the D&C - that is Jesus Christ.

Originally Posted by volgadon

Umm, reading the OT in Hebrew WITHOUT knowing Hebrew does not make things much clearer.

Then learn Hebrew That's what Joseph Smith did. Also, the website I linked to above has the paleo-Hebrew, modern Hebrew, latin, and 8 English translations. So you can read it in English then cross-reference the Hebrew and Latin Vulgate. A great resource for the pseudo-scholar

[Just_A_Guy]

Puf, I'm speechless. That concordance is a marvel.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

Originally Posted by Just_A_Guy

Puf, I'm speechless. That concordance is a marvel.

Now if only I had a way of taking it with me on my mission!

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by puf_the_majic_dragon

Actually Moses did speak to God the Father (of our spirits). Or at least Elohim was present at the burning bush incident. See Exodus 3:6
"6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God."

Hebrew transliterated:
3:6 VY'aMUr 'aNKY 'aLHY 'aBYK 'aLHY 'aBUrHM 'aLHY YTShChQ V'aLHY Y'yQB VYSThUr MShH PhNYV KY YUr'a MHBYT 'aL-H'aLHYM.

The "aLHYM" at the end is Elohim. The word El for God is also present transliterated above as "'aLHY". Thus the verse can be translated in English to read:
"6 Moreover he said, I am the God (El) of thy father, the God (El) of Abraham, the God (El) of Isaac, and the God (El) of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon Elohim."
However in previous and subsequent verses, most of the interaction between Moses and God is between Moses and YHWH (Jehovah/Christ).
Actually, Elohim can be seen to make appearances all throughout the chapter - Verses 4, 11, 13, 14, and 15. Also the whole conversation takes place on the Mountain of Elohim (verse 1).

God the Father was also present in a vision given to Stephen: Acts 7
"56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."

And in the first vision given to Joseph Smith:
Joseph Smith—History 1
"17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! "

LDS.org:
"Because Adam and Eve transgressed this command and partook of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they were cast out from the presence of the Lord."

Also, in D&C:
Doctrine and Covenants 29
"41 Wherefore, I, the Lord God, caused that he should be cast out from the Garden of Eden, from my presence..."

It's plain here that A: the spiritual death refers to our removal from the presence of God and does NOT mean a complete absence of God from our lives. And B: that the God who's presence we are separated from is the God speaking in the D&C - that is Jesus Christ.



Then learn Hebrew That's what Joseph Smith did. Also, the website I linked to above has the paleo-Hebrew, modern Hebrew, latin, and 8 English translations. So you can read it in English then cross-reference the Hebrew and Latin Vulgate. A great resource for the pseudo-scholar

If any man ever has addressed the Father of spirits without the Mediator (note that Joseph Smith Jr. was in the presents of the Father with the mediator); then man was not cast out from the presents of the Father (not really fallen) and there is no need for a mediator because a fall did not really take place.

But there was a fall. The El and Elohim of ancient Hebrew refers to the Suzerain of a kingdom to which fallen man was subject to at the time.

The Traveler