confused on importance of KFD

[Misshalfway]

The KFD is not canon, but that doesn't disqualify it from having doctrinal value. It DOES have great value. I can't think of a sermon that opens the mind quite like this one does. But it must be understood in proper context. Understanding what is and isn't canon is an important perspective. Not all revelations from prophets are put into the canon. Not all discourses from prophets are revelations. And not everything that comes out of a prophets mouth is the mind and will of God. I think this perspective is important to understand when evaluating the KFD, among other writings.

Most of the revelations/counsel given from prophets in small group settings are generally only for the people present. In this case, the sermon was given at a funeral. It seems to me to be an opportunity for Joseph to speak his mind publically on some subjects that they Spirit was teaching him privately. I am not sure what to do with the thing other than to appreciate it as it has NOT been made official. Because it hasn't been made official, this makes me wonder if perhaps God isn't ready to open this understanding to everyone -- which is often the case with the mysteries of the eternities.

I think there may be some disagreements among many church members as to how to characterize the KFD with regards to doctrinal validity as there are many versions. Which parts were actually what Joseph said and which parts were missed or misrecorded? There is no doubt that the subject is new and paradigm shifting and incredibly ground shaking. Some think it should be considered as the revelation in the D&C for example and I have seen them argue on this forum as such. Others, such as myself, think it is tiny peek into things we just don't know enough about yet. Cool....valueable.....doctrinal.....but not fully understood. And there is room for both perspectives and lots in between as God allows us to chew on things like this as he points us back to more important ideas such as the Atonement. I think there are questions as to how much of these subjects even Joseph understood properly and I am not sure he explained himself as well as he could have. I personally think of it like maybe Ben Franklin learning a few tidbits on electricity, but perhaps only possessing a glimpse into the breadth of what he was on to and I wish that I could hear the explanation from his own lips and not thru the imperfect scribes who tried to capture it.

I think when one evaluates the KFD, one must do so with the help of the Holy Spirit to understand properly what is being taught and what is perhaps the ideas or faults of men. And I think because this discourse falls into the merky dawn of our understanding and because there have been no official revelations given to the public for official consumption, we are left to see it for what it is. The canon is over here and the KFD is over there. But valuable and helpful for the person who is ready to understand and explore the topic and one who is ready, as Hemi says to be taught from on high.

Don't worry so much about the KFD. It is what it is. And it's not what it's not.

[bytebear]

Here's the problem, I see. Has anyone actually read the whole discourse? It's fairly long (so long in fact, that the church published it in two separate Ensign issues). I would say, before you pick and choose what you think was taught, it would be wise to read the entire discourse. What's interesting is Smith doesn't just tell the congregation what is, but he tells them to search their hearts to discover the nature of God for themselves, and that only through personal revelation can we really understand the nature of God.

Here is the entire text:

LDS.org - Ensign Article - The King Follett Sermon Part 1

LDS.org - Ensign Article - The King Follett Sermon Part 2

[Lstinthwrld]

Originally Posted by Misshalfway

The KFD is not canon, but that doesn't disqualify it from having doctrinal value. It DOES have great value. I can't think of a sermon that opens the mind quite like this one does. But it must be understood in proper context. Understanding what is and isn't canon is an important perspective. Not all revelations from prophets are put into the canon. Not all discourses from prophets are revelations. And not everything that comes out of a prophets mouth is the mind and will of God. I think this perspective is important to understand when evaluating the KFD, among other writings.

Most of the revelations/counsel given from prophets in small group settings are generally only for the people present. In this case, the sermon was given at a funeral. It seems to me to be an opportunity for Joseph to speak his mind publically on some subjects that they Spirit was teaching him privately. I am not sure what to do with the thing other than to appreciate it as it has NOT been made official. Because it hasn't been made official, this makes me wonder if perhaps God isn't ready to open this understanding to everyone -- which is often the case with the mysteries of the eternities.

I think there may be some disagreements among many church members as to how to characterize the KFD with regards to doctrinal validity as there are many versions. Which parts were actually what Joseph said and which parts were missed or misrecorded? There is no doubt that the subject is new and paradigm shifting and incredibly ground shaking. Some think it should be considered as the revelation in the D&C for example and I have seen them argue on this forum as such. Others, such as myself, think it is tiny peek into things we just don't know enough about yet. Cool....valueable.....doctrinal.....but not fully understood. And there is room for both perspectives and lots in between as God allows us to chew on things like this as he points us back to more important ideas such as the Atonement. I think there are questions as to how much of these subjects even Joseph understood properly and I am not sure he explained himself as well as he could have. I personally think of it like maybe Ben Franklin learning a few tidbits on electricity, but perhaps only possessing a glimpse into the breadth of what he was on to and I wish that I could hear the explanation from his own lips and not thru the imperfect scribes who tried to capture it.

I think when one evaluates the KFD, one must do so with the help of the Holy Spirit to understand properly what is being taught and what is perhaps the ideas or faults of men. And I think because this discourse falls into the merky dawn of our understanding and because there have been no official revelations given to the public for official consumption, we are left to see it for what it is. The canon is over here and the KFD is over there. But valuable and helpful for the person who is ready to understand and explore the topic and one who is ready, as Hemi says to be taught from on high.

Don't worry so much about the KFD. It is what it is. And it's not what it's not.

I dont worry about it much just trying to figure out how it fits in thats all.

By the way Misshalfway...2.5 carrots colorless platinum setting ....

[Misshalfway]

Thx, Bythebear. Every time I engage in a discussion about the KFD I alway wish I had time to go back and read. I have read two versions, and scanned a third. I appreciate your comments about Joseph's invitations to be taught by the Lord. It is that way on so much of our gospel.

y the way Misshalfway...2.5 carrots colorless platinum setting ....

LOL.....well, diamonds are a girls best friend.

[Lstinthwrld]

Originally Posted by Misshalfway

Thx, Bythebear. Every time I engage in a discussion about the KFD I alway wish I had time to go back and read. I have read two versions, and scanned a third. I appreciate your comments about Joseph's invitations to be taught by the Lord. It is that way on so much of our gospel.




LOL.....well, diamonds are a girls best friend.

I put up link in post #3 that goes over the 5 sources of the transcription. Kind of neat to see how each different person heard what was being said.

[Misshalfway]

One of the blessings of today is that we can get the prophets teachings word for word. We don't necessarily have the need for scribes anymore at least for GC. I love going back to the words of Neal A Maxwell for example. Talk about stuff that really makes you think.....and search your soul at the same time. I miss dear Elder Maxwell.

[Just_A_Guy]

Does the current Priesthood/Relief Society study manual (on the teachings of Joseph Smith) cite the KFD anywhere?

[Elohel]

Originally Posted by Just_A_Guy

Does the current Priesthood/Relief Society study manual (on the teachings of Joseph Smith) cite the KFD anywhere?

Yes, it does. See my earlier posts. 'Gospel Principles' cites 'Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith' which contains the full KFD from which it directly quotes.

[Loudmouth_Mormon]

Side note, but this thread helped me come to understand that the King Follett Discourse, and the Wentworth Letter, are two different things.

(I probably should have know that years ago, but I'm a bit thick in the skull...)

LM

[Elohel]

Originally Posted by Hemidakota

We have members who will argue on issues of non-canonized revelations should not be taught but if that is true, even those personal revelations are just as much scripture today as it was with the former prophets. As we know, there is but one priesthood holder in the church who can receive such for the whole church. Most of it, is still not canonize for various reasons. We members who want everything to be canonize for an official seal of approval instead relying on the Spirit to be instructed and receive their own spiritual edification. Or plainer meaning here, they require, sad it may seems, “I do lack the faith to ask GOD directly and require for someone else to instruct me.” I don’t know what they would when communications become disrupted and there is no lines back to the hierarchy of the church to lead them. If we follow the Spirit with exactness, we begin to understand truths that are not written, truths that are written with a greater clarity, in meaning and feel the emotions of those who penned it. Our thoughts will become the same as the Prophet and the Apostles of the Lamb.

-------

Those who do seek the face of GOD do not really worry over what is not canonized but rely on GOD to instruct them personally. The rely on the Spirit to help them to recognized revelations ‘between the lines’ with earlier works, which will only edified their soul unto salvation. This should be our goal. This should be our desire to seek as Peter spoke of in 2nd Peter chapter 1.

I wanted to thank you personally, Hemidakota, for helping me to understand better how to see these modern revelations. I will be sure to ask God for better understanding as I read these types of discourses and lectures, even though I fear I might get mixed signals and think something is true that really isn't, which is more common than I would like