Tithing: Pre-tax or After tax? Gross v. Net?

nimrod · #1 (**permalink**) 09-14-2009, 09:17 PM

I couldn't find my answer in the Tithing Section, so I'm asking it here:

A ward member gave a talk in Sacrament Mtg sunday on tithing. Twice, he said in the talk, that "you are not a full tithe payer unless you pay on your gross income." He also said, (twice) that "you are not a full tithe payer unless you pay on pre-tax income."

I'm not trying to skimp the Lord here but I want people to make accurate statements, especially in sacrament meeting. As I know it, we are commanded to pay 10% of our interest (increase) annually. I don't think the Church has defined it as Gross, Net, Pre-tax, etc.

Please indicate if I am wrong. Before giving an "opinion" on tithing, please indicate if you have a source that answers this question directly.

(I know that IF you pay on your net, you need to pay on your tax return, but if you pay on your Gross, you do not need to pay on your return.)

I bring this up, because a blanket application of "Gross Income" cannot be applied well across the board (self employed, sole proprietorship, investment income, etc) Also, what are your thoughts on paying pre-tax when wealthy people pay 70% tax and poor people pay zero to 5% tax (not right now, but it has been like this) AND, depending on how you answer this question, should one pay tithing on your "cash for clunkers" benefit/rebate? Disclaimer: I agree that people SHOULD/can pay as much to the Lord as they can. I just want true doctrine/teachings to be disseminated.

pam · #2 (**permalink**) 09-14-2009, 09:20 PM

Can I refer you to this?

LDS.net references to tithing

Just_A_Guy · #3 (**permalink**) 09-14-2009, 09:21 PM

I don't think there's any official clarification.

(personal opinion coming

Me, I pay on gross. I'd watch the tax refund issue, though. If you wind up getting more in tax refunds than you actually paid (which is entirely possible, given certain income levels and certain refundable tax credits) - IMHO, that's "income" and should be tithed.

Quote:

Also, what are your thoughts on paying pre-tax when wealthy people pay 70% tax and poor people pay zero to 5% tax (not right now, but it has been like this)

I'm not sure it's particularly relevant. Tax is tax, tithing is tithing, and payments of one are not applicable towards amounts owing on the other.

Quote:

AND, depending on how you answer this question, should one pay tithing on your "cash for clunkers" benefit/rebate?

IMHO: No; because it isn't "increase"--you already owned the car (which you presumably purchased years ago with post-tithing funds), and when you got the rebate you lost the car.

Quote:

I bring this up, because a blanket application of "Gross Income" cannot be applied well across the board (self employed, sole proprietorship, investment income, etc.

My law firm is set up as an LLC. I only pay tithing on the amounts I actually pay myself out of the LLC's surplus. However, at some point twenty or thirty years down the road I'll retire and sell off my practice, and at that point I anticipate tithing 10% of the proceeds of the sale.

missingsomething · #4 (**permalink**) 09-14-2009, 10:06 PM

I had a member tell me that I benefit from the taxes that I pay into the government even though its not an "increase" to me.... Im NOT saying I buy into this.

Most bishops do not ask you how you are paying... gross or net then off tax return.... they just ask if you are paying a full tithe (because many believe it also includes your time, talents and services as well)... the reason is because this is something PERSONAL between you and the Lord.
And my person motto is... if in doubt... pay it... afterall.... are you really gonna loose out for paying extra? Wont the Lord reward you for that? But you have to pray for that and do what is best for you. I used to pay on net then pay on my income tax return. Now I pay on gross... so my tax return is mine mine mine

bytor2112 · #5 (**permalink**) 09-14-2009, 10:10 PM

I was told that it was on the gross by my Bishop and SP.

Gatorman · #6 (**permalink**) 09-14-2009, 10:10 PM

And, my take is a little different. Tithing is supposed to be on your 'increase'. So, what is the definition of increase? I have seen numerous, including one that said increase is that which was left over after you had paid for all you had to pay for to live reasonably. Meaning, after home, food, etc, was dealt with. I dunno about that for myself. I pay on my take home. I pay on my income tax, if I get one. And, I have no doubt I am a full tithe payer, for what it is worth.

john doe · #7 (**permalink**) 09-14-2009, 10:12 PM

There is no counsel given, it is a personal decision for each individual.

beefche · #8 (**permalink**) 09-14-2009, 10:58 PM

I found this talk on tithing that will give you some things to consider.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Law of Tithing

lilered · #9 (**permalink**) 09-15-2009, 08:12 AM

For the purposes of discussion. If tithing is paid on the gross amount of ones income through out life. Then when one retires and starts drawing social security, do they continue to pay tithing on the gross amount of their social security?

If one pays tithing on the net amount of ones income throught life, when one retires and starts drawing social securiy do they continue to pay tithing on the net amount of their social security?

lilered · #10 (**permalink**) 09-15-2009, 08:17 AM

If one pays on simply the net amount of their income, it is possible they may not be paying a full tithing. This is how it could happen. If one were working a place of business where they were allowed to buy merchandise and have it deducted from their paycheck? EG: Dillards, Autoparts,etc.. They would in fact not be paying tithing on those items that were purchased thru payroll deduction. The same could be true for 401k deductions or other similiar retirement or savings plans.