Define Monotheism

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

Traveler...do you really believe that Satan, the angel, is a true and living god? He was/is an angel with presumptions to deity that will never be realized.

Once again let us turn to the Bible to settle if Satan is a g-d or an angel. I produced one that makes referenct to him as a g-d. I would be most interested in one, if there is one, that says he is an angel. BTW that title is not true and living - the title is "g-d of this world". Please keep in mind that I did not write this scripture. All that I did was bring it to your attention. I am most courious to observe what you do with it. My main reason for pointing this out is that just because someone has "g-d" in their title, for what-ever reason, does not mean that they should be worshiped. Thanks

The Traveler

[bmy-]

The belief in one supreme being, or one "higher power". It has nothing to do with worship, IMO.

Originally Posted by Traveler

Once again let us turn to the Bible to settle if Satan is a g-d or an angel. I produced one that makes referenct to him as a g-d. I would be most interested in one, if there is one, that says he is an angel. BTW that title is not true and living - the title is "g-d of this world". Please keep in mind that I did not write this scripture. All that I did was bring it to your attention. I am most courious to observe what you do with it. My main reason for pointing this out is that just because someone has "g-d" in their title, for what-ever reason, does not mean that they should be worshiped. Thanks

"But God's anger was kindled because he went; and the angel of the Lord took his stand in the way as his adversary [satan]. Now he was riding on the ass, and his two servants were with him." (Num. 22:21-22)

[prisonchaplain]

It's pretty well known that "gods" in the KJV often means powerful beings, even human judges. That Satan was the angel of light, and fell from heaven is equally common knowledge. See attached for a lengthy treatment of this: God and the Angels

I'm truly confused here. Traveler, do you really believe Satan is a god and not an angel, or is there some other point you're trying to make?

[rameumptom]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

We're talking mostly about Judaism here, and whether the OT form was basically monotheistic or henotheistic. Interestingly, Abraham is considered the first "Jew," primarily because he renounced idolatry and dedicated himself to the one all-powerful God.

See: Basic Judaism

I don't deny that Jews throughout history have engaged in henotheism. But such was never the approved religious practice of Torah.

The Torah as we now have it came much later than Moses. It was written in the time of King Solomon and afterward, when much of the views were settling down regarding these things.

As it is, the belief of various real Gods still shows up in the Torah and early Prophets. Most of them just insist that Elohim/Yahweh is the premier God of the earth (or of just Israel). In fact, that is one of the key teachings in Ezekiel - that the Lord is not just God of the terrain called Palestine, but is still a powerful God even in the land of Babylon and elsewhere. This was a new and amazing teaching for the Jews, who believed that God would not follow them into the lands of another country.

Job begins chapter one with several of the divine sons of El Elyon going to challenge Yahweh for primacy among the divine.

Their view was that other Gods did exist, but that Elohim/Yahweh was greater than them all. And this was the mainstream belief until the Deuteronomists and Priests added their changes to the Torah in the days of Josiah and afterward.

[rameumptom]

Originally Posted by Traveler

Once again let us turn to the Bible to settle if Satan is a g-d or an angel. I produced one that makes referenct to him as a g-d. I would be most interested in one, if there is one, that says he is an angel. BTW that title is not true and living - the title is "g-d of this world". Please keep in mind that I did not write this scripture. All that I did was bring it to your attention. I am most courious to observe what you do with it. My main reason for pointing this out is that just because someone has "g-d" in their title, for what-ever reason, does not mean that they should be worshiped. Thanks

The Traveler

Satan or Adversary was one of the divine sons of El Elyon/Elohim. Job ch 1 tells us that he and other divine sons went to challenge Yahweh for primacy in the divine council. The way to do that was a challenge where Yahweh would potentially gamble away his land Israel.

[rameumptom]

In another addition to his blog, James quotes extensively from another Hurtado book. One quote is this:

Pg. 36-37: [Quoting from an earlier essay, Hurtado, “First-Century Jewish Monotheism,” 21-11] “ Jews were quite willing to imagine beings who bear the divine name within them and can be referred to by one or more of God’s titles … beings so endowed with divine attributes as to make it difficult to distinguish them descriptively from God, beings who are very direct personal extensions of God’s powers and sovereignty. About this, there is clear evidence. This clothing of servants of God with God’s attributes and even his name will seem “theologically very confusing” if we go looking for a “strict monotheism” of relatively modern distinctions of “ontological status” between God and these figures, and expect such distinctions to be expressed in terms of “attributes and functions.” …The evidence … shows that it is in fact in the area of worship that we find “the decisive criterion” by which Jews maintained the uniqueness of God over against both idols and God’s own deputies.

Here, monotheism is described in terms of who is worshiped, or worthy of being worshiped. In such an instance, Mormons would be equally as monotheistic as any other Christians. Yet the evidence is very clear that Jews did believe in other divine beings, who shared God's attributes, but just were not worshiped as God.

And this would explain the confusion John the Revelator and others had, in seeing a being that was as glorious as God, but refused to be worshiped, as that was to only be reserved for God (see Rev 19:10).

[prisonchaplain]

Originally Posted by rameumptom

The Torah as we now have it came much later than Moses. It was written in the time of King Solomon and afterward, when much of the views were settling down regarding these things.

I'm aware of such theories, but they are far from being as conclusive as you suggest here. Many knowledgeable scholars still argue that the Books of Moses are his, and that they were written approximately 1400 BC.

As it is, the belief of various real Gods still shows up in the Torah and early Prophets. Most of them just insist that Elohim/Yahweh is the premier God of the earth (or of just Israel). In fact, that is one of the key teachings in Ezekiel - that the Lord is not just God of the terrain called Palestine, but is still a powerful God even in the land of Babylon and elsewhere. This was a new and amazing teaching for the Jews, who believed that God would not follow them into the lands of another country.

What you call new, I'd call restored. How's that for irony. Yes, the Old Testament is a history of the Jews repeatedly "whoring after the gods of Canaan." Prophets were repeatedly reminding the Hebrews of their foundation, their God. Sometimes the apostasy would last several generations, and the reminder of monotheism may have seemed new. But, your suggestion that Ezekiel invented monotheism--if I'm understanding your statement correctly--is not accurate.

Their view was that other Gods did exist, but that Elohim/Yahweh was greater than them all. And this was the mainstream belief until the Deuteronomists and Priests added their changes to the Torah in the days of Josiah and afterward.

Again, your "mainstream belief" is a description of apostasy. The prophets were not repeatedly inventing monotheism, but calling the Hebrews back to the faith of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Back to the one true God.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

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Again, your "mainstream belief" is a description of apostasy. The prophets were not repeatedly inventing monotheism, but calling the Hebrews back to the faith of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Back to the one true God.

When the Hebrew texts refer to "One" G-d, the word that is always used is ehad. But many Christians that claim monotheism as the doctrine of the ancients use the concept in modern language of one (in particular the doctrine of the Trinity) as though the scriptures used Yhed. A criticism that both Jews and Muslims, whose language is more closely associated with a clearer understanding of the ancient text compared with the modern languages of western society.

The Traveler