Does God Meddle with Free Will?

[Misshalfway]

I don't think that God forces things to happen. I think God invites people to change their hearts and their minds. I think it is a persons willingness to be changed that opens the possibilities for the miracle.

[Still_Small_Voice]

Whenever questions like this come up I refer back to these scriptures:

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. -- Isaiah 55:8-9

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by Snow

A few months back there was a discussion about whether, at a supplicant's request, God would intercede with a prospective employer to cause that employer to hire the supplicant when, without God's intervention, the employer would not have hired the supplicant, but rather hired someone else.

Simply put, is the idea of divine manipulation of a person's free agency in accordance with gospel principles?

Excellent question Snow. I believe there are two principles in opposition that play out here. The first is the principle or possibility of freedom and the second is the principle or possibility of bondage. I could demonstrate that in mortal life we do not have nor is it possible to exercise “free will” – especially without the concept of a pre-mortal existence.

What I would like to put forward is that a large portion of our life is pre-determined before we are born. Sort of like a software program or video game that has been pre-written and that critical decisions are made at key points that have significant consequences to outcome. Therefore at these critical points it is required that decisions between possibilities are made – despite the problem that the decisions must be made not really knowing or understanding the consequences. Never-the-less we are given clues to help us discern what will bring freedom as opposed to what brings bondage.

I would point the reader to the LDS Bible dictionary at the back of the King James Version of the Bible published by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. In particular the Bible dictionary definition of prayer. Here we learn that there are blessings withheld in heaven and which the L-rd desires to grant but are withheld and made conditional on our asking for them.

I would suggest that the entire entry for prayer be read in the LDS Bible dictionary before drawing conclusions about the will of G-d verses the will of man and the outcome of prayer before continuing this discussion. I am very open and willing to discuss thoughts concerning this understanding of prayer and will, once this has been read.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

Originally Posted by Traveler

Excellent question Snow. I believe there are two principles in opposition that play out here. The first is the principle or possibility of freedom and the second is the principle or possibility of bondage. I could demonstrate that in mortal life we do not have nor is it possible to exercise “free will” – especially without the concept of a pre-mortal existence.

What I would like to put forward is that a large portion of our life is pre-determined before we are born. Sort of like a software program or video game that has been pre-written and that critical decisions are made at key points that have significant consequences to outcome. Therefore at these critical points it is required that decisions between possibilities are made – despite the problem that the decisions must be made not really knowing or understanding the consequences. Never-the-less we are given clues to help us discern what will bring freedom as opposed to what brings bondage.

[/SIZE][/FONT]

Sorry, but I thought the question was confusing. I know its just me, because it seems everyone else is seeming to understand the question and even call it an excellent question. Maybe someone can clarify the point of the question then if you would be so kind as it seems Snow hasn't responded for a bit.

My impression is that the question is not asking about the nature of free agency or whether the free agency was taken away, which to me would spawn a discussion of bondage versus freedom but rather as Snow simplified in the last sentence of the original post, the question was rather God manipulates free agency and would this fit with gospel principles. And when asked that way, the answer is of course. I think a lot of responders assumed the question was whether agency was taken away. I guess I didn't see it that way, especially looking at the simplified summary of the question. If I'm wrong, sorry, I didn't understand the question. ... Maybe another way to ask the question is (Snow, tell me if I'm wrong); Can God get into someones head and make someone choose something against what they would have chosen on their own if given the same situation and options?

When someone prays for the truth and they are in the darkness where their free agency is limited, God can send the missionaries to that persons door and thus manipulate the free agency of that person. Their choices were changed by Gods intervention, and therefore manipulating free agency. (note: the question was not - was free agency taken away?) So, manipulating free agency can be a good thing. Increasing the number of choices by opening their eyes or the opposite like what happened after the apostasy.

This fits with the case in the example Snow gave. Maybe the resume was misplaced, the prayer was given, and the employer, through divine guidance realized there was another stack of resumes in a different location therefore reconsidering his/her choice and then picked the employee in the example. That wouldn't have happened if the employer's free agency wasn't manipulated, in other words, other options were open to the employer. There wasn't enough information given in the example to know, just saying that sure, God could have manipulated the employers agency.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by Seminarysnoozer

Sorry, but I thought the question was confusing. I know its just me, because it seems everyone else is seeming to understand the question and even call it an excellent question. Maybe someone can clarify the point of the question then if you would be so kind as it seems Snow hasn't responded for a bit.

My impression is that the question is not asking about the nature of free agency or whether the free agency was taken away, which to me would spawn a discussion of bondage versus freedom but rather as Snow simplified in the last sentence of the original post, the question was rather God manipulates free agency and would this fit with gospel principles. And when asked that way, the answer is of course. I think a lot of responders assumed the question was whether agency was taken away. I guess I didn't see it that way, especially looking at the simplified summary of the question. If I'm wrong, sorry, I didn't understand the question. ... Maybe another way to ask the question is (Snow, tell me if I'm wrong); Can God get into someones head and make someone choose something against what they would have chosen on their own if given the same situation and options?

When someone prays for the truth and they are in the darkness where their free agency is limited, God can send the missionaries to that persons door and thus manipulate the free agency of that person. Their choices were changed by Gods intervention, and therefore manipulating free agency. (note: the question was not - was free agency taken away?) So, manipulating free agency can be a good thing. Increasing the number of choices by opening their eyes or the opposite like what happened after the apostasy.

This fits with the case in the example Snow gave. Maybe the resume was misplaced, the prayer was given, and the employer, through divine guidance realized there was another stack of resumes in a different location therefore reconsidering his/her choice and then picked the employee in the example. That wouldn't have happened if the employer's free agency wasn't manipulated, in other words, other options were open to the employer. There wasn't enough information given in the example to know, just saying that sure, God could have manipulated the employers agency.

First off, Seminarysnoozer, it appears from you post that you have not read the definition of prayer in the LDS bible dictionary that I suggested. Since you have not read let me quote one part that may help you:

“Prayer is the act by which the will of the Father and the will of the child are brought into correspondence with each other. The object of prayer is not to change the will of G-d, but to secure for ourselves and for others blessings that G-d is already willing to grant, but that are made conditional on our asking for them.”

The reason that Snow’s question is so good is because it highlights some of our misunderstandings of prayer, individual will and answers to prayer.

The Traveler

[cleanvisit]

I just attended a Stake Conference in which President Eyring spoke. He talked about this exact same question. He said that while finishing up his Doctorate Degree, he was one of 8 professors working at a prestigious university. The news came that only one of the 8 would have a job in the coming months. President Eyring, a Bishop at the time, knew that he could not work on Sundays and figured that because of this, the other professors would get to keep the job over him. However, he said that the Lord made him do more than he physically thought possible in the time he had to work. Because of this great "intervention by God," as you might say, he was selected and the others lost their positions.

So, it is not so much that God intervenes and "manipulates" the free agency of others so much as it is that God "qualifies those He calls."

I can explain clearer if my words are a bit vague but I hope this helps further this conversation.

[cleanvisit]

When God, an omnipotent being (one who already knows ALL things) calls someone to perform a work, he already knows it will happen.

Now, even though I believe this, it is still difficult at times to grasp. Anyway....the minuteness of a finite mind....argh!

[Seminarysnoozer]

Originally Posted by Traveler

First off, Seminarysnoozer, it appears from you post that you have not read the definition of prayer in the LDS bible dictionary that I suggested. Since you have not read let me quote one part that may help you:

“Prayer is the act by which the will of the Father and the will of the child are brought into correspondence with each other. The object of prayer is not to change the will of G-d, but to secure for ourselves and for others blessings that G-d is already willing to grant, but that are made conditional on our asking for them.”

The reason that Snow’s question is so good is because it highlights some of our misunderstandings of prayer, individual will and answers to prayer.

The Traveler

Even after reading the bible dictionary I still don't see how you made the jump from the title of this thread "Does God meddle with free will? and Snows summary of his question "is the idea of divine manipulation of a person's free agency in accordance with gospel principles?" to a discussion of changing Gods will through prayer. If you think that is an excellent question what would you think of the question "Does prayer change the will of God?" - - a more excellent and clearer question?

I have had enough banter with Snow to realize the open-ended question approach or an obscure question before going in for the kill after we have chewed ourselves up over it. Snow's question clearly uses the words "a person's free agency" and "divine manipulation" meaning God is doing the changing to a person. It seems to me Snow was asking about the second part to that of which the Bible dictionary is talking about for prayer. If you believe God never acts on our prayers then I guess that is a different discussion. I think Snow was asking about after prayer is successful in asking the thing that God is waiting to hear and that condition of asking was met .... THEN .... could God manipulate a person's free agency? Or do you think after the conditions of prayer are met that God does nothing?

Do you think Snow's waving of the hands has reached new heights by putting a title and a "simply stated ..." question pointing in another direction from the real intent of the question? ... that Snow really wanted to ask about changing the will of God? and not God manipulating agency of a person?

I'm not telling you that you can't focus on one aspect of the question that you have interest in, go for it! But don't tell me because I didn't read something that I didn't perceive as the focus of the question that I don't understand the answer to a separate question. I agree with all that the Bible dictionary has to say about prayer and yet the question could still be posed that Snow posted. I think a discussion of the value of prayer and how God answers prayer is good. But one could still ask, "Does God meddle with free will (as an action that may or may not be directly related to anybody's personal prayer)?"

[Snow]

Originally Posted by Seminarysnoozer

If free agency is given by God how is manipulation of it by God not in accordance with gospel principles?

see: Satan's Plan.

[Snow]

Originally Posted by Still_Small_Voice

Whenever questions like this come up I refer back to these scriptures:

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. -- Isaiah 55:8-9

Your point being??? That it is all a big ole giant mystery????