Does God Meddle with Free Will?

[Snow]

Here's a thought on the topic:

If short of God's intervention, a state of affairs, SA1, would occur due to the exercise of free will of a free agent and then God would have to manipulate the exercise of free will to bring about some other state of affairs, SA2.

If a prospective employer prayed to God for guidance on who to hire and God somehow inspired him with an answer, then God has exercised persuasive power but has not violated free will - which I, and gospel principles - I think, hold sacred. On the other hand if the employer, at the same time an applicant was praying for a job, was set on giving the job to someone else, and God intervened and supernaturally interceded to compel SA2 when the employer wished no divine guidance, then coersive power would have been exercised.

The difference is persuasion vs coercion.

In D&C JS wrote that "no power can or ought to be maintained only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness and by love unfeigned"

While a person my pray for a job, if the employer is not inclined to receive divine guidance, it's a one-way street and would be coercive and thus outside gospel principles... at least that's what I am thinking tonight.

[Gatorman]

Agreed Snow. Heavenly Father would not possess someone to change their mind for them. However, he is capable of acting very persuasively. If he believed that the job was critical for that person, he could perform a miracle to help get that decision made. Perhaps he finds the other person ANOTHER job. Who knows? But, no, Heavenly Father would not act AS the employer and take away agency.

[rameumptom]

Snow, I believe that God does intercede on occasion with free will. Did Pharaoh want to let the children of Israel go? Did Laban want his head cut off? Did the many peoples that God has destroyed have their agency stopped? Is this God only influencing, or is it God forcing the issue? I think God can and does on occasion force choices upon us.

I think we can plainly see that God allows agency, but only to a certain extent at times. It is more an issue of: if God does not intervene, will his will be done? If so, then he can withhold action. However, where his divine will and the final outcome may be impacted, he does step in.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Originally Posted by Snow

see: Satan's Plan.

Satan's plan was to take away free agency all together. Your question was about manipulating free agency. What's your point?


If one drives down a 2 lane highway and it suddenly turns into an 8 lane highway, free agency has been manipulated. If one is driving down an 8 lane highway that cuts into a 2 lane highway to cross a bridge, free agency has been manipulated. When Joseph Smith prayed to God for guidance as soon as he was visited by God, God directly manipulated his free agency as it opened up to many more options than what he had before. So the answer to your question, Does God meddle with free will? The answer is yes, because He can change the choices available, that's how he changes the free will of men. ... and it doesn't have to be negative, it can be in a positive direction.
The next time you are driving down an 8 lane highway and it turns into a 2 lane highway, ask yourself if your free will has been manipulated (note* I'm not asking if it was taken away, just manipulated).

I'm sure there are people who see it differently, but that's how I see it. Of course if you were to ask me, Does God take away free agency? I would say no, that would defeat the purpose of this life. But if you ask, what it looks like you asked, Does God meddle with free will/agency? the answer is yes. .... for me at least, until someone explains differently, which I am open for.

[rameumptom]

In Snow's example, he is suggesting what is called Libertarian Free Will. There are arguments for and against it. I suggest the LDS Philosophy email list for some good discussions on it (it pops up frequently there). Also Mormon Metaphysics (Clark has some good stuff here).

The thing is, there are also strong evidence that Libertarian Free Will does not exist. There are philosophical problems both ways. It is on the one extreme, while PreDestination and Calvin's TULIP are on the other extreme. In the middle is Compatibilism, where agency and predestination are both tempered - it is with this that you will usually find me.

So, I reject the concept that God must allow us absolute free will/agency, as it just doesn't happen. Nor is it an issue that God tinkers on occasion, as he generally allows free will to occur in our lives.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by Seminarysnoozer

Even after reading the bible dictionary I still don't see how you made the jump from the title of this thread "Does God meddle with free will? and Snows summary of his question "is the idea of divine manipulation of a person's free agency in accordance with gospel principles?" to a discussion of changing Gods will through prayer. If you think that is an excellent question what would you think of the question "Does prayer change the will of God?" - - a more excellent and clearer question?

I have had enough banter with Snow to realize the open-ended question approach or an obscure question before going in for the kill after we have chewed ourselves up over it. Snow's question clearly uses the words "a person's free agency" and "divine manipulation" meaning God is doing the changing to a person. It seems to me Snow was asking about the second part to that of which the Bible dictionary is talking about for prayer. If you believe God never acts on our prayers then I guess that is a different discussion. I think Snow was asking about after prayer is successful in asking the thing that God is waiting to hear and that condition of asking was met .... THEN .... could God manipulate a person's free agency? Or do you think after the conditions of prayer are met that God does nothing?

Do you think Snow's waving of the hands has reached new heights by putting a title and a "simply stated ..." question pointing in another direction from the real intent of the question? ... that Snow really wanted to ask about changing the will of God? and not God manipulating agency of a person?

I'm not telling you that you can't focus on one aspect of the question that you have interest in, go for it! But don't tell me because I didn't read something that I didn't perceive as the focus of the question that I don't understand the answer to a separate question. I agree with all that the Bible dictionary has to say about prayer and yet the question could still be posed that Snow posted. I think a discussion of the value of prayer and how God answers prayer is good. But one could still ask, "Does God meddle with free will (as an action that may or may not be directly related to anybody's personal prayer)?"

The point I was trying to make is that through prayer our will is brought into alignment with the will of G-d. I would like to avoid the concept of “free” will because I am not sure free will is any different from will.

Thus the real answer to prayer is not to change the will of G-d or his works but bring our will and our works into alignment with the will and works of G-d. Until that takes place the prayers of man are not really answered by G-d.

Because we have a tendency to begin our prayers with where we are with our personal wills – Snow is using this tendency to demonstrate (with reverse logic) that if we hold to our will and not align our will with G-d’s then it must be that G-d would have to take away somebody’s will in order to answer an individual prayer – any individual’s prayer. Since many of us think our will is justified any indication that our will has been helped, it is seen as G-d’s answer to our prayers. But if it is our will that is justified and not the will of G-d then in reality the prayer was not answered by G-d. Thus, just because we pray and get a job – it is possible that it really was not G-d answering our prayer even though many think that it is.

Snow is much smarter than we want all want to admit – and he likes people to come to his same cleaver conclusion without him having to take them step by step on how to get there. He likes us to do the logic – sort of thing. He is not just trying to have a discussion – he is trying to get people to think – especially to think beyond the “Sunday” school answer and to get to a level where we “stretch” a little. If you do not understand that about Snow he will drive you nuts – but if you do understand he can spark some very interesting thinking. If this is not fun or informative for you then I would suggest that you not play in his game.

The Traveler

[Misshalfway]

It seems that in this world we act and are acted upon. God acts upon us. Satan acts upon us. And we all act upon ourselves and each other. We can take away certain parts of anothers freedoms. We can even limit our own. It seems God can and does do the same. But there are parts to agency that God won't violate. I don't think he can violate them. He can't save someone against their will.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Originally Posted by Traveler

He is not just trying to have a discussion – he is trying to get people to think – especially to think beyond the “Sunday” school answer and to get to a level where we “stretch” a little. If you do not understand that about Snow he will drive you nuts – but if you do understand he can spark some very interesting thinking. If this is not fun or informative for you then I would suggest that you not play in his game.[/FONT][/COLOR]

The Traveler

I appreciate your patience with me. To me, being vague in a question on purpose comes across as being insincere. This forum in general has made me return to searching the scriptures and prayer and I am thankful for that.

I agree with your explanation of prayer and not changing God's will and aligning our will with His. But even after one's prayer aligns with the will of God, God can act and the question remains whether that action can result in the manipulation of a person's free agency? And I think yes, just like Joseph Smith's free agency expanded after he aligned his will with Gods, God acted by visiting him and thus expanded his free agency.

Another, personal, example; my neighbor contracted a bad infection of the leg, a cellulitis. She knew that I was a nurse and asked for my advice on several things. As we spent time together in her house as IV antibiotics were given we had the opportunity to talk about religion. She is now going to church and considering the missionary discussions. Now I believe, maybe some would say different, that God acted. I didn't ask God to do this, I didn't ask God to force her to stay home with an infection. I think God 'manipulated' my neighbors free agency, she was forced to stay home from work and turn her heart for help which ultimately resulted in me being invited into her home and her having to listen to me talk (and believe me, that is really curtailing someones agency). She still had free will to not believe anything I said but her agency was limited (having to stay home) which allowed me to have a closer relationship with her. And ultimately, her agency will be expanding as she accepts the truth. My husband tells me that the elders quorum president has been praying for weeks to open that neighbors husband's heart before this happened and they were trying to figure out a way to fellowship this neighbor. I believe the prayer was answered, maybe aligning the elders quorum president's will with Gods was a prerequisite but my will was not changed. And God still had to manipulate something more to make that happen. I believe that, I know there will be differing opinions about Gods involvement. But I believe He acted. God did not force my neighbors will but, to me, it seems like He 'meddled' with it, as before she was not willing to listen to the gospel message and now she is.

I think the confusing part in the set up of this thread is distinguishing free will from free agency. And maybe that is something that I don't have a good feel for in terms of definitions. To me, free will and free agency are separate things.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by Seminarysnoozer

I appreciate your patience with me. To me, being vague in a question on purpose comes across as being insincere. This forum in general has made me return to searching the scriptures and prayer and I am thankful for that.

I agree with your explanation of prayer and not changing God's will and aligning our will with His. But even after one's prayer aligns with the will of God, God can act and the question remains whether that action can result in the manipulation of a person's free agency? And I think yes, just like Joseph Smith's free agency expanded after he aligned his will with Gods, God acted by visiting him and thus expanded his free agency.

Another, personal, example; my neighbor contracted a bad infection of the leg, a cellulitis. She knew that I was a nurse and asked for my advice on several things. As we spent time together in her house as IV antibiotics were given we had the opportunity to talk about religion. She is now going to church and considering the missionary discussions. Now I believe, maybe some would say different, that God acted. I didn't ask God to do this, I didn't ask God to force her to stay home with an infection. I think God 'manipulated' my neighbors free agency, she was forced to stay home from work and turn her heart for help which ultimately resulted in me being invited into her home and her having to listen to me talk (and believe me, that is really curtailing someones agency). She still had free will to not believe anything I said but her agency was limited (having to stay home) which allowed me to have a closer relationship with her. And ultimately, her agency will be expanding as she accepts the truth. My husband tells me that the elders quorum president has been praying for weeks to open that neighbors husband's heart before this happened and they were trying to figure out a way to fellowship this neighbor. I believe the prayer was answered, maybe aligning the elders quorum president's will with Gods was a prerequisite but my will was not changed. And God still had to manipulate something more to make that happen. I believe that, I know there will be differing opinions about Gods involvement. But I believe He acted. God did not force my neighbors will but, to me, it seems like He 'meddled' with it, as before she was not willing to listen to the gospel message and now she is.

I think the confusing part in the set up of this thread is distinguishing free will from free agency. And maybe that is something that I don't have a good feel for in terms of definitions. To me, free will and free agency are separate things.

Generally I think we would all be better off to remove the adverb “free” because I do not think it adds better understanding to either “will” or “agency”. But that is just me. I like your story. The problem is that we only see a very small part of all the contributing factors. For example, you may not be aware of what your neighbors were praying for. Our L-rd may have realized that in order to answer their prayers something had to be done to help bring their will and agency around to be able to understand what it was they really needed and wanted. Because they were praying and asking the L-rd was able to help them.

We may sometimes see his help as a “set back” but that is because we see things through a mortal perspective. The point is that G-d is not going to force agency. We are all having a mortal experience that will bring peril. We agreed to have a mortal experience of peril before we came to earth. The reality is that nothing will happen to us without our compliance. It may not seem so at the time but at some point we did agree. Even Jesus at Gethsemane lost track of what he had promised to do as the reality of what was unfolding conflicted with his will at the moment.

Sadly many do not find out until later that very often our current will can conflict with our true will that defines who we really are. So what appears to be a manipulation of our will or the will of others by G-d is nothing more than an “awakening” to the our real will.

The Traveler

[Moksha]

Believing in prayers or actions to incur Divine intercession must go part and parcel with Man's very oldest yearning for God.

Whether God interceeds or not, the fact is that millions have taken comfort from that thought and continue to do so.