The Limits of God's Power

[Dravin]

Originally Posted by Snow

I've seen some argue, wrongly, that omnipotence means that God can do absolutely anything. For example, God cannot create a 4 sided triangle... not because God is not powerful, but because the concept is meaningless. A triangle has three sides. If you create something with 4 sides then it is not 3 sided. In that sense, God is not limited - it's just a nonsensical question.

My favorite one is: Can God do the impossible?

That's a fun one, by definition the impossible is not possible, omnipotence does not change that. Now obviously we can have a flawed understanding of what is impossible, but if something is truly impossible it cannot be done, even by an omnipotent being.

[Seminarysnoozer]

God cannot realize something is done until it is actually done. I can barely wrap my head around the concept of God not restricted by time. But it seems in the scriptures that there is a value to actually bringing something to pass as opposed to God saying this will happen, or I have seen the future and it will happen. In other words, I don't think God can take the full credit for something (i.e. gain glory) for potential projects or future projects. I think this is evidenced by Gods work being to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. And I think its evidenced by there being no end to Gods work because the glory is in the actual doing the thing not just planning it.

The other thing God would be limited by (but since He participates in this He is not limited) is the lack of relationships with other beings. In other words, if God was a loner, He would not be God. He requires relationships with others and in fact the more relationships the better. If He was by himself, He would not be God, just some powerful dude hanging out. This is why the true doctrine has to incorporate a belief that God was never by himself. There were always other beings around and related to God.

[Misshalfway]

God cannot save us unless we let Him.

[Snow]

Originally Posted by Gatorman

God could clearly make a 4 sided triangle. The only limitation is not God's power, it is our understanding of his power. If you can not imagine him being able to create a 4 sided triangle, then, you do not truly understand his greatness and your own limitations.

Here's the test: Describe how God can make 4 sides on a 3 sided geometric shape.

Do you think we will have to wait long for an explanation?

[Gatorman]

Simple, I can not, for I do not have God's understanding of things. I am limited by man's faulty and irrational understanding of things. I do not have God's definitions of geometric features. I am limited by man's limited ability. However, I do believe that Heavenly Father is not so limited. I understand that our definitions limit us. Since I believe Heavenly Father is not thusly limited, I believe it is perfectly possible that a 4 sided geometric figure, in God's understanding, could be a triangle and we are wrong.

I do not place man's limitations on my understanding of God. It is why I can believe that he can make a man walk on water, a donkey talk, a bush burn without damage and his voice be present, and a flood occur that may not have left evidence. Man's weakness leads us to need to define things in terms we understand. When we can't understand something in our own ways, we have 2 choices. Excercise faith or deny it. My faith allows me to believe that, even if I am not able to explain it, Heavenly Father can do it.

Now, can you explain to me why a Heavenly Father who created the Heavens and Earth, created man in his own likeness, and all the other things the LDS faith teaches us he did, is limited by our own understanding of the world?

Originally Posted by Snow

Here's the test: Describe how God can make 4 sides on a 3 sided geometric shape.

Do you think we will have to wait long for an explanation?

[Dravin]

So basically God can do it through using a definition different than is generally understood? That doesn't require omnipotence. Heck, I can redefine murder as helping the poor thus making murder a good thing and I'm far from omnipotent, redefining the word meaning a three sided geometric shape to mean something else is child's play.

Edit: Of course getting other people to accept it is another story.

[Snow]

Originally Posted by Gatorman

Simple, I can not, for I do not have God's understanding of things. I am limited by man's faulty and irrational understanding of things. I do not have God's definitions of geometric features. I am limited by man's limited ability. However, I do believe that Heavenly Father is not so limited. I understand that our definitions limit us. Since I believe Heavenly Father is not thusly limited, I believe it is perfectly possible that a 4 sided geometric figure, in God's understanding, could be a triangle and we are wrong.

I do not place man's limitations on my understanding of God. It is why I can believe that he can make a man walk on water, a donkey talk, a bush burn without damage and his voice be present, and a flood occur that may not have left evidence. Man's weakness leads us to need to define things in terms we understand. When we can't understand something in our own ways, we have 2 choices. Excercise faith or deny it. My faith allows me to believe that, even if I am not able to explain it, Heavenly Father can do it.

... and that's why your answer is irrelevant and completely uninteresting. Posing a nonsense question - a question that means nothing - and saying that, yes, God can do it by explaining its a big ol giant mystery is as meaningless as the nonsense question.

Now, can you explain to me why a Heavenly Father who created the Heavens and Earth, created man in his own likeness, and all the other things the LDS faith teaches us he did, is limited by our own understanding of the world?

Open up a thread on it and if it's interesting, I'll participate.

[pam]

Originally Posted by Gatorman

God could clearly make a 4 sided triangle. The only limitation is not God's power, it is our understanding of his power. If you can not imagine him being able to create a 4 sided triangle, then, you do not truly understand his greatness and your own limitations.

Gatorman no disrespect. Are you arguing this for arguments sake because it's Snow that posed the question?

[Snow]

Setting aside the nonsense questions (can God eat ribeye steaks that don't exist)...

1. God is limited in his moral agency...

We know that “God cannot lie” (Enos 1:4). He is thus limited to not lying, (for the time being let’s ignore the scriptures that say that good can and does lie/deceive). Alma (11:34) tells us that “[God] cannot save [persons] in their sins; for he cannot deny his word;... it is impossible for him to deny his word” So we know that God cannot deny his word and God cannot save people in their sins. The implication is clear - God is good and it is impossible for God to genuinely bring about evil.

Now some have suggested that when the scriptures say that God "cannot," what they really mean is "will not." First, the Book of Mormon was translated by inspiration into English. Both God and Joseph Smith were familiar with the word "cannot" but they instead used the words "will not." Second, Even if God could lie, which the Book of Mormon clearly says that he cannot, then we are informed what would happen if God did behave immorally: "Now the works of justice cannot be destroyed, if so, God would cease to be God" Alma 42:13. Ergo, if God were to act unjustly or immoral, then God would no longer be God. Note that the scripture says that He would cease to be God, not that he would cease to exist... the implication that He would lose his titular station in the Godhood.

Another way to look at it is that God's essential nature is moral, good, just... perfectly so and God cannot act in a way that contradicts his essential nature... at least not and remain God.... and that's something that people who think God kills and orders the killing of innocent life (and stealing and rape and slavery and kidnapping, etc) should think about.

2. The second way that God is limited is shown in the Alma scripture above... God cannot save people in their sins; not that he will not, rather that he cannot. Thus the atonement or some other process or event with similar consequences was necessary.

[Justice]

The scriptures don't always complete a thought. Perhaps it said cannot under the presumption that "He would cease to be God if He did."

I believe the way you appear to. I believe God "can" do those things, but then even He would suffer consequences.