Born Again and Saved

[Rhi_Bran_y_Hud]

Originally Posted by Justice

Rhi, somewhere yoou got the wrong idea that we believe God will interfere with one's choices.

In fact, He must execute justice (punishment and reward) for our day-to-day actions (works).

Matthew 25 teaches this very plainly 3 times.

I agree with you: God will never override our free will, but it seems to me that anyone who rejected God has rejected Love itself and all the goodness that flows from it. To me, it seems that the rapist/murderer who has implicitly rejected God by his actions deserves no part of God's goodness in the afterlife. In His fairness and justice, God fully respects the person's decision by sending him to hell/outer-darkness, which would be the only place where no one will ever experience God in any way. Both justice and free-will are respected by the existence of a hell/outer-darkness.

On the other hand, I think this is what LDS theology leads to: if the rapist/murderer, or an evangelical like me, having both rejected the LDS God, are destined to the telestial or terrestrial kingdoms, then I think both our free will and justice have been negated. At least, if I've read D&C 76 (?) correctly, that's how it would fall out, wouldn't it?

[Justice]

Which of the 119 verses in D&C 76 are you referring to? Sorry, it's late and I'm tired. I'll look for the specific verses from you tomorrow.

[prisonchaplain]

Originally Posted by Justice

I'm curious what you thought of the video PC...

It was a well done collage of LDS leadership testifying to salvation in a way that pointed towards exaltation. Non-LDS will hear hopeful confidence, and find little to argue with--unless they seek argument.

[Snow]

Originally Posted by Rhi_Bran_y_Hud

I agree with you: God will never override our free will, but it seems to me that anyone who rejected God has rejected Love itself and all the goodness that flows from it. To me, it seems that the rapist/murderer who has implicitly rejected God by his actions deserves no part of God's goodness in the afterlife. In His fairness and justice, God fully respects the person's decision by sending him to hell/outer-darkness, which would be the only place where no one will ever experience God in any way. Both justice and free-will are respected by the existence of a hell/outer-darkness.

Do you think that (if one rejects God he rejects goodness and deserves no goodness in the afterlife) is strictly about those that really reject God or do you also believe that it applies to those that reject what man says about God. That is, can man reject what other men say about God, while still accepting God, and still partake of God's goodness in the afterlife?

[Rhi_Bran_y_Hud]

Originally Posted by Traveler

... "Testaments of the Patriarchs” and the “Book of Enoch” ... There is another interesting text that is exist and claims to come from the very hand of Jesus. ...

My problem is not with what we have – my problem is with those that argue that is it complete and as such is worthy of canon.

The Traveler

I think I have the Book of Enoch on a computer program, but do you have links to the others you mentioned?

By canon do you mean "something which is closed" or "something by which all others are measured"? I don't think the Bible is closed per say. For example, I think the Book of Acts is still being written. I have a feeling we agree at least on principle.

[Rhi_Bran_y_Hud]

Originally Posted by Snow

Do you think that (if one rejects God he rejects goodness and deserves no goodness in the afterlife) is strictly about those that really reject God or do you also believe that it applies to those that reject what man says about God. That is, can man reject what other men say about God, while still accepting God, and still partake of God's goodness in the afterlife?

I would certainly hope that I could reject what men say about God but still accept God, that is, as He truly is. We are both in the exact same position in that respect: you say (as far as I know) that God is human; I say God is Triune and we both hope the other is wrong.

In other words, if what you say about God turns out to be true, then I am not just rejecting what you say about Him, I am rejecting Him. If it is not true, then all is well for me: I can reject what you say but not God Himself.

Back to rejecting/accepting God: I don't think this issue of salvation is really so much about working our way to a restored relationship, or conducting some sort business transaction with God--it is not a civil dispute where two parties can each meet their obligations to fulfill a goal. That is Islam, Buddhism, etc.

It is a situation more like C.S. Lewis what described where we are "rebels who must lay down our arms." It is not a question of what what we can do to appease God or meet Him halfway, it is not about quantity or quality of sins to atone for. Instead it is a question of loyalty: there is no middle ground, we either remain traitors or we defect and join God's family.

So you can see why it would seem very out of sync to me that criminals etc., should be allowed any sort of heaven.

[Rhi_Bran_y_Hud]

Originally Posted by Justice

Which of the 119 verses in D&C 76 are you referring to? Sorry, it's late and I'm tired. I'll look for the specific verses from you tomorrow.

Can do...

Outer Darkness... D&C 76:41-48 (it says the atonement automatically saves everyone from this fate except for Satan and his buddies.)

Celestial Kingdom... D&C 76:50-70 (only the best of the best get this far; Celestial Glory = Eternal Life, correct?)

Terrestrial Kingdom... D&C 76:71-80 (generally decent folks who do not accept the LDS gospel get to go here. It says they did not receive it while in the flesh, but what guarantees that they will in the afterlife?)

Telestial Kingdom... D&C 76:81-89 and 98-112 (these characters have done hard time in hell, but are now admitted into the Telestial. Who says they have any more love for God than they did when they first died? What guarantees that they are reformed if they never chose it? Would we really want an unreformed rapist/murderer running free in any level of heaven?

It just seems very odd to me that sin would be treated as if it were a debt to be paid off by any amount of punishment or good works.

[Misshalfway]

Originally Posted by Rhi_Bran_y_Hud

I would certainly hope that I could reject what men say about God but still accept God, that is, as He truly is. We are both in the exact same position in that respect: you say (as far as I know) that God is human; I say God is Triune and we both hope the other is wrong.

In other words, if what you say about God turns out to be true, then I am not just rejecting what you say about Him, I am rejecting Him. If it is not true, then all is well for me: I can reject what you say but not God Himself.

Back to rejecting/accepting God: I don't think this issue of salvation is really so much about working our way to a restored relationship, or conducting some sort business transaction with God--it is not a civil dispute where two parties can each meet their obligations to fulfill a goal. That is Islam, Buddhism, etc.

It is a situation more like C.S. Lewis what described where we are "rebels who must lay down our arms." It is not a question of what what we can do to appease God or meet Him halfway, it is not about quantity or quality of sins to atone for. Instead it is a question of loyalty: there is no middle ground, we either remain traitors or we defect and join God's family.


So you can see why it would seem very out of sync to me that criminals etc., should be allowed any sort of heaven.

I guess I just don't measure things in such black and white terms. And I don't think God does either. The scriptures say that God judges upon the heart. One mans' belief about the nature of God may differ from another man's belief.... but the devotion inside both hearts the same and profoundly beautiful. I make every effort to understand God because as the Bible says eternal life is knowing God and the Savior he sent. But I may not always get it right. Experience, trauma, or culture may influence how much of the truth I am able to receive and I think God takes into account all of those things and will judge each person based upon the level of knowledge they obtained and the way they lived their life according to that knowledge.

If one is presented with truth and recognizes in some degree the spirit of truth and rejects it because of pride or fear of man or some other vice and then rebells against it or turns to fight against it, then that my friend is a horse of a different color and constitutes the kind of punishments God reserves for the wicked.

But I can't put ignorance and willful blindness in the same catagory.

[Justice]

Originally Posted by Rhi_Bran_y_Hud

So you can see why it would seem very out of sync to me that criminals etc., should be allowed any sort of heaven.

It seems from one point of view you are saying that what we do doesn't matter, in the way of gaining salvation, but that what we do does matter in the way of damnation.

Is that right?

[Justice]

Originally Posted by Rhi_Bran_y_Hud

It just seems very odd to me that sin would be treated as if it were a debt to be paid off by any amount of punishment or good works.

God is just. When a law is broken that law must be appeased. There is a punishment attached to law. If God does not enact the punishment (or allow the consequences) then He is not just.

What is offered through Christ is mercy in place of a just punishment. Christ allows the demands of the broken law by us, or debt to justice, to be paid in full. He then can extend mercy or forgiveness though what He accomplished.

He ransomed us.

Christ taught a Gospel of love and doing good to our fellow man. He said He would judge us based on this criteria. It is for Him to say what demands are attached to gain the gift He offers, since He paid the debt and we are indebted to Him now. He told us the criteria He will use for judgement.

He paid the debt for the rapist, murderer, and all the others you mention. He wants us to repent, forgive others, and to treat each other justly. He said if we do those things He will stike an agreement with justice on our behalf and grant us mercy. If we do not, we are left to ourselves, because that is what we chose by our actions.

I don't see anything inconsistent in D&C 76 with these principles.