Born Again and Saved

[Snow]

Originally Posted by Rhi_Bran_y_Hud

I would certainly hope that I could reject what men say about God but still accept God, that is, as He truly is. We are both in the exact same position in that respect: you say (as far as I know) that God is human; I say God is Triune and we both hope the other is wrong.

In other words, if what you say about God turns out to be true, then I am not just rejecting what you say about Him, I am rejecting Him. If it is not true, then all is well for me: I can reject what you say but not God Himself.

Back to rejecting/accepting God: I don't think this issue of salvation is really so much about working our way to a restored relationship, or conducting some sort business transaction with God--it is not a civil dispute where two parties can each meet their obligations to fulfill a goal. That is Islam, Buddhism, etc.

It is a situation more like C.S. Lewis what described where we are "rebels who must lay down our arms." It is not a question of what what we can do to appease God or meet Him halfway, it is not about quantity or quality of sins to atone for. Instead it is a question of loyalty: there is no middle ground, we either remain traitors or we defect and join God's family.

So you can see why it would seem very out of sync to me that criminals etc., should be allowed any sort of heaven.

Let me be more specific - could someone reject what the men of the Bible (or BoM or D&C or PoGP) say about God and still be saved.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Originally Posted by Rhi_Bran_y_Hud

I think we would rather say that there is flat out, no ordinance to submit to when it comes to receiving salvation (eternal life). If there is any requirement or entry fee then it would simply be faith (but I'm sure that horse has been pulverized, so I won't go on about that).

I think a metaphor to understand how LDS think of salvation and the difference between just believing and action is think about getting an advanced education. One can go to a college campus and walk around and even attend some of the classes and know that it is real and believe in the power of an advanced education. But if one really wants to take advantage of it you have to qualify, apply for acceptance. And then you have to sign a contract (like a covenant). Only then can the college really be a partner in helping you achieve your advanced education. It can guide you to take the right classes and learn the right material.

You say "submit to an ordinance" like you think it is a repressive thing, it's the opposite, like signing the acceptance to a college or signing mortgage papers (if it's not a bad mortgage). These covenants can open opportunities that weren't there before. Covenants are like the sting on a kite, without it the kite doesn't fly. Is there nothing gained by a marriage covenant? Even that covenant is being attacked. It's sad that people are losing sight of the power of covenants. I think the reflection of the 'do it yourself approach' is to reject covenants. That is the necessary belief that goes hand in hand with the belief that all one has to do is believe in Jesus. Covenants require authority. And so when one does not know where to find authority or doesn't believe it exists other than in the form of a book then that person has to reject covenants. And if one rejects covenants than it is more convenient to say that man does not have to do anything for salvation. All these things go hand in hand.

We believe this life is a test. If it is, someone has to administer the test, you can't give the test to yourself, this is why it is necessary to have ongoing direction and administration. And because it is a test, one can't be 'given' the answers. It requires action to complete the test. It isn't a one question test, "Do you believe that Jesus is your savior?" It is a series of tests, of which the questions are increasingly more and more complex, what we call the refiners fire. There is no refinement in a one question test. The perfecting process is one that requires patience and longsuffering. There is no longsuffering in "Do you believe Jesus is your savior?" yes? okay, you pass.