Who was Jesus?

[rameumptom]

I think part of the answer is in Alma 13: the great and noble ones were those who exercised exceeding great faith in the premortal existence and were foreordained.

Could Jesus have failed his mission? Yes. But given how righteous he was, the odds were very slim he would fail.

As I've mentioned, Jesus needed his atonement just as much as we do. He required baptism "to fulfill all righteousness". IOW, it was a requirement that he also had to fulfill. He required the resurrection, just like us. And he required his own atonement - a payment for all the suffering he would go through in life.

Yes, Jesus was God in the premortal existence. He was a divine Son, who had achieved a high level of spirituality, sufficient to be a God. Note, this does not mean he was a fully finished/complete God. He still required mortality, resurrection, and a final judgment, in order to be completed. As with us, he moved from grace to grace, receiving grace for grace, until he received a fullness of grace (D&C 93).

I see Intelligence differently than that mentioned before. Intelligence is matter that is filled with the Light of Christ (which fills the immensity of space). Intelligence (also called "mind" by some) is what gives each atom its structure and innate capability. God organized matter into higher levels of intelligence (atoms into molecules into elements into life forms with individuality and personality, or spirits). Abraham 3 calls spirits, "organized intelligences".

This is a long process, which develops our many parts and particles into who we are today. Along the way, our intelligence/mind becomes complex enough to understand individuality, to make choices, to have agency. God eventually forms many into Spirit beings and they become "innocent in the beginning." IOW, newly born spirits grow up just as newly born mortals do, learning and growing as they go.

Each spirit focused on the things that mattered most to him/her. Some became experts in math, others in science. Why was Mozart so good at 4 years of age with music? Perhaps because he focused heavily on it in the premortal existence.

For God, all these talents were important to develop in his children. The most important talent to develop, however, was spirituality. Christ was foremost in this area, totally dedicated to doing the Father's will. I envision him being like Ammon, who after preserving the flocks, immediately went and prepared King Lamoni's horses and chariot without having to be reminded or asked.

While others may have murmured or demurred when it came time to obey God, Jesus was fully and always in God's court.

Jesus was so obedient that when God organized the Godhead, he called his two best spirit children to the positions of Mediator and Holy Ghost. This became the presidency of heaven. I'm sure it was also a training ground for their work with mankind in mortality.

Jesus' atonement applies to all. We do not have to be Saviors in the way Jesus was, but assistants of Christ in bringing about God's work: the immortality and eternal life of man (Moses 1:39). Jesus' atonement is accomplished in two ways: he pays for our sins, so we don't have to, and when he fills us with the Holy Ghost, we become justified and sanctified. We are made holy and worthy through Christ. As we walk in his footsteps, we perfect ourselves, receiving grace for grace as we go from one level of grace to the next, until we reach a fullness of grace in and through Christ.

This is how I see things. It all fits perfectly together.

[Traveler]

We learn from the Book of Abraham that not only was Jesus intelligent (intelligent meaning light and truth) but that he was more intelligent than all the other spiritual offspring of the Father of spirits. But the Book of Abraham goes one step farther in saying that Jesus was also more intelligent (possessed more light and truth) than all the other offspring combined.

And so at the great consul of Heaven there was a signup sheet passed around for a volunteer to be the Messiah and the first councilor in the G-dhead. There were two that signed up. One that claimed to be the most qualified was so convincing that a major group of the most intelligent beings to ever exist in eternities of the most advanced civilization that ever was joined together in an unyielding cause.

But there was another that we know today as Jesus and Jehovah that offered him and all that he owned and had that we all could become g-ds, equal citizens, in the great eternal society of heaven. He desired no glory for himself and he sacrificed more than his life as a mortal.

This was the beginning of a great war that continues even now as we become agents in war for our Father and his Son or Lucifer. And so there is war to divide the souls of men into a kingdom of a singular all powerful G-d or a kingdom of many g-ds that are united in covenant and purpose as one G-d.

The Traveler

[changed]

Originally Posted by Seminarysnoozer

I don't think this is possible, I don't think one can revert from perfect immortality to mortal. Believing that it takes perfect immortality to "have children." Unless you are saying Jesus watched it on TIVO or something.

Jesus did not watch it on TIVO - he watched it first hand, side by side with the Eloheim (the other gods).

It is possible to fall from immortality...

22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.
(Book of Mormon | Alma 42:22)

Read through Alma 42. There are circumstances under which God would cease to be God...

[changed]

Originally Posted by Misshalfway

We were reading Mosiah with the kids this morning and we read Abinidi's speach (Ch 15) about Jesus being the Father and the Son. I was struck by a few lines.

vs. 1 "...God himself shall come down among the children of men to redeem his people..."


So....Jesus was God before he came to earth, in spirit form, and if I understand its because he was chosen out of the noble and great ones because he was so progressed and then like vs 8 given power from God the Father to perform the duties of the Son. Yes?

Yes. A lot of stuff in the OT is not God speaking/acting - it is Jesus as an example.

see:
Premortal existence of Christ: The Lord appeared unto Abram, Gen. 12:7 (Gen. 17:1; 18:1; Abr. 2:6–8). The Lord spoke unto Moses face to face, Ex. 33:11 (Deut. 34:10; Moses 1:1–2). I saw the Lord standing upon the altar, Amos 9:1. In the beginning, the Word was with God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, John 1:1, 14 (1 Jn. 1:1–3). Before Abraham was, I am, John 8:58. Glorify thou me with the glory which I had with thee before the world was, John 17:5. Isaiah verily saw my Redeemer as I and my brother Jacob have seen him, 2 Ne. 11:2–3. On the morrow come I into the world, 3 Ne. 1:12–14. Christ was before the world began, 3 Ne. 26:5 (John 6:62). As I appear unto thee will I appear unto my people in the flesh, Ether 3:14–17. Enoch saw the Lord and walked with him, D&C 107:48–49. My Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, Moses 4:2. The Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me, Abr. 3:27.
(Guide to the Scriptures | J Jesus Christ.:Premortal existence of Christ)

vs. 3 "..the father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh, thus becometh the Father and the Son -"

So....is this how he was qualified? It must have been. Yet he was God before this. Hmmm.

vs. 8 " and thus God breaketh the bands of death, having gained the victory over death; giving the Son power to make intercession for the children of men --"

[/quote]

One thing to note about God - time does not exist where God is, there is no before/after was/is/willbe with God.

8 ... all is as one day with God, and time only is measured unto men.
(Book of Mormon | Alma 40:8)

Past/present/future are all as one day with God. He knows the future, knows what everyone will become, a spirit with potential to become God is a God in the eyes of Heavenly Father IMO as when He looks at anyone He sees not only what was and is, but what will become of them. The same yesterday, today, and forever - either yesterday, today, and forever you will grow/progress or you will not grow and progress. You are one or the other, we are who we always were and always will be...

(Does the future set in stone take away agency? No - knowing and causing are two different things, God knows, but does not cause it. We cause ourselves to become what we become, so it is our agency.)

[Seminarysnoozer]

Originally Posted by rameumptom

I see Intelligence differently than that mentioned before. Intelligence is matter that is filled with the Light of Christ (which fills the immensity of space). Intelligence (also called "mind" by some) is what gives each atom its structure and innate capability. God organized matter into higher levels of intelligence (atoms into molecules into elements into life forms with individuality and personality, or spirits). Abraham 3 calls spirits, "organized intelligences".

This is a long process, which develops our many parts and particles into who we are today. Along the way, our intelligence/mind becomes complex enough to understand individuality, to make choices, to have agency. God eventually forms many into Spirit beings and they become "innocent in the beginning." IOW, newly born spirits grow up just as newly born mortals do, learning and growing as they go.

Each spirit focused on the things that mattered most to him/her. Some became experts in math, others in science. Why was Mozart so good at 4 years of age with music? Perhaps because he focused heavily on it in the premortal existence.

For God, all these talents were important to develop in his children. The most important talent to develop, however, was spirituality. Christ was foremost in this area, totally dedicated to doing the Father's will. I envision him being like Ammon, who after preserving the flocks, immediately went and prepared King Lamoni's horses and chariot without having to be reminded or asked.

While others may have murmured or demurred when it came time to obey God, Jesus was fully and always in God's court.

I agree with 99% of what you say here, especially with Jesus requiring atonement. I disagree with your view of spirits developing talents in the pre-earthly life and so those people are put into matching circumstances here. How would one know what earthly things you would like until you experience it. Would you know you like the taste of Root Beer before coming here? no!, likewise you would not know the joys of playing piano, the bag pipes or soccer or other activities requiring a body.

I don't know what Mozart was good at before coming here, nor do you. Like the parable of the 10 talents, those talents were given as a test, to see if the servants would be faithful in a little so they can become masters of more. Each portion we are given here, does not have a linear relationship with our spiritual propensities of the pre-earthly life, in fact it may have an inverse relationship. Those that are low will be made high. This existence is a test primarily and the exact test that I need may be different than your test and anyone else. I think the given talents here are part of what God sees as our test of heart and desires. Of course, if someone has a valiant spirit in the pre-earthly life they will continue to be valiant and obedient in this life and no matter what grouping of talents they were given they will probably excel. You think Shaquel O'neal learned how to play basketball in the pre-earthly life, I don't think so. I like to surf, and am pretty good at it, but I doubt there were waves to surf in the pre-earthly life and for that matter, likely won't be a needed skill for any of my future jobs in the here after. What about all the babies that are born with Down's, is that a reflection of their talents, just the opposite ... because they were so valiant, more valiant than you and me, their talents are limited. The only relationship we know about with valiancy and obedience to this life are those that are foreordained to positions of authority in God's church, not talents. Of course, when one is valiant in the teachings of Christ their talents will improve faster.

I personally believe we spent zero time developing earthly talents, that is why we had to come here, to learn what those are with a body. Its hard to develop body related talents, like playing a piano without actually having a piano. In fact there was a GA talk that even used that metaphor, something about a master of music trying to teach music without any musical instruments as an example of the reason we needed to come here. I think one may find they really loved music in the pre-earthly life but here had no desire for it, the body and the veil itself cover a lot.

[Misshalfway]

Well, my PB spends a load of time talking about all my preparations in the pre earth life. I have hard time seeing that we didn't develop talents there. I don't know how specifically they relate to earthly activities, but it seems to me that some come to this earth with gifts, gifts that I suspect came long before ones conception.

[changed]

Originally Posted by rameumptom

I see Intelligence differently than that mentioned before. Intelligence is matter that is filled with the Light of Christ (which fills the immensity of space). Intelligence (also called "mind" by some) is what gives each atom its structure and innate capability. God organized matter into higher levels of intelligence (atoms into molecules into elements into life forms with individuality and personality, or spirits). Abraham 3 calls spirits, "organized intelligences".

This sounds too much like saying God created us to me. Our mind is our own. Our personality is our own. God did not piece some intelligences together to be good, and some to be bad, some to be smart, and some to be slow. How we start out has nothing to do with God. God helps those who listen become what they become.

The universe is made up of two building blocks:

14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created(organized) all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 2:14)

There are:
1. things that act
2. things that are acted upon

Spirit/intelligences - things that act.
inanimate matter intelligences are attached to = things that are acted upon.


Things that act - have agency - act for themselves, are self-existent.

We say that God Himself is a self-existing being. Who told you so? It is correct enough; but how did it get into your heads? Who told you that man did not exist in like manner upon the same principles? Man does exist upon the same principles. God made a tabernacle and put a spirit into it, and it became a living soul. (Refers to the Bible.) How does it read in the Hebrew? It does not say in the Hebrew that God created the spirit of man. It says, “God made man out of the earth and put into him Adam’s spirit, and so became a living body.”

The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal [co-eternal] with God himself. I know that my testimony is true; hence, when I talk to these mourners, what have they lost? Their relatives and friends are only separated from their bodies for a short season: their spirits which existed with God have left the tabernacle of clay only for a little moment, as it were; and they now exist in a place where they converse together the same as we do on the earth.

I am dwelling on the immortality of the spirit of man. Is it logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it has a beginning? The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic. That which has a beginning may have an end. There never was a time when there were not spirits; for they are co-equal [co-eternal] with our Father in heaven.

I want to reason more on the spirit of man; for I am dwelling on the body and spirit of man—on the subject of the dead. I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man—the immortal part, because it had no beginning. Suppose you cut it in two; then it has a beginning and an end; but join it again, and it continues one eternal round. So with the spirit of man. As the Lord liveth, if it had a beginning, it will have an end. All the fools and learned and wise men from the beginning of creation, who say that the spirit of man had a beginning, prove that it must have an end; and if that doctrine is true, then the doctrine of annihilation would be true. But if I am right, I might with boldness proclaim from the housetops that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself.

Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle. It is a spirit from age to age and there is no creation about it. All the minds and spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible of enlargement.

The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with Himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits.

This is good doctrine. It tastes good. I can taste the principles of eternal life, and so can you. They are given to me by the revelations of Jesus Christ; and I know that when I tell you these words of eternal life as they are given to me, you taste them, and I know that you believe them. You say honey is sweet, and so do I. I can also taste the spirit of eternal life. I know that it is good; and when I tell you of these things which were given me by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, you are bound to receive them as sweet, and rejoice more and more.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - The King Follett Sermon

from above: intelliegences are spirit.

we are self-existent. We created/create who we are. God allows us 100% more opportunities to learn grow, we would not be able to progress much without God, He opens up the way in which we can go if we so choose... We are who we choose to be, self-existent, self-created...

God is cleaning up a mess He did not make.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Whenever I read that King Follett Sermon, I see it as JS explaining the difference between God making a physical body, like what He did with Adam and Eve and making a spiritual body which is what He did for our spirits. The difference being He created Adam and Eve from the earth which is in essence from scratch. Where with spirits He creates them by other means, possibly (we don't know) how we 'create' children here. If you think about it, when we procreate here, the material to make the baby was always around for us, it wasn't from scratch. And so if Heavenly Father and Mother 'create' a baby spirit in similar manner, the material to form that spirit child was always around, it was not created from scratch, it was more of a procreation. I think if you read that talk in that light, every time he talks about the spirit formation it makes sense to me. If HF and HM have a spirit child you have to call it procreate and not create. It doesn't give us the details but thats how I read it. And you have to keep in mind, a lot of people he was talking to believe the deceased existence began at this earthly birth. He is trying to explain that he will continue to exist after birth just like he existed before his earthly birth, a way of comforting the family about death.

[rameumptom]

Originally Posted by changed

Jesus did not watch it on TIVO - he watched it first hand, side by side with the Eloheim (the other gods).

It is possible to fall from immortality...

22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.
(Book of Mormon | Alma 42:22)

Read through Alma 42. There are circumstances under which God would cease to be God...

This is not falling form immortality. This is falling from an exalted state. Huge difference. God would continue being immortal if he fell, just as Satan is immortal. He just wouldn't be exalted anymore.

The likelihood of God falling? So statistically close to zero that it becomes a zero-sum game.

[rameumptom]

Originally Posted by Seminarysnoozer

I agree with 99% of what you say here, especially with Jesus requiring atonement. I disagree with your view of spirits developing talents in the pre-earthly life and so those people are put into matching circumstances here. How would one know what earthly things you would like until you experience it. Would you know you like the taste of Root Beer before coming here? no!, likewise you would not know the joys of playing piano, the bag pipes or soccer or other activities requiring a body.

I don't have my Mormon Doctrine on me, but Elder McConkie does mention that we developed talents as spirits, and that the greatest talent was spirituality.

Mormon Doctrine: PreMortal Life | Mormon History here we can read that spirits developed talents in the premortal existence.

Elder McConkie stated

By obedience, by conformity, by personal righteousness, because he elected to follow in the path of the Chosen and Beloved Son, Spencer W. Kimball was noble and great in the preexistence. Above all his other talents, he developed the talent for spirituality—the talent to believe and accept the truth, the talent to desire righteousness. (Bruce R. McConkie, “God Foreordains His Prophets and His People,” Ensign, May 1974, 71)

Elder Christoffel Golden said:

During these momentous latter days, we declare that God our Eternal Father lives. We testify that we existed in His presence, prior to this life, as His spirit children. During our premortal existence, we were tutored in conditions which provided us with the opportunity to develop our talents and abilities. In that blessed, premortal abode, we were “left to choose good or evil.” Alma states that we chose good by exercising “great faith” and performing “good works.” Thus, we kept our first estate, while our Father, in turn, foreordained us to receive certain privileges in this lifetime (Christoffel Golden Jr., “Our Father’s Plan,” Ensign, Nov 2001, 30)

As I said, we developed talents in the premortal existence, just as we are developing talents here.