A Particular Doctrine of Interest

SeattleTruthSeeker · #1 (**permalink**) 11-07-2009, 11:34 AM

Recently, I have stumbled across a very interesting doctrine that has me developing an actual essay on. This doctrine is known as Subordination, and it pertains to the relationship between the Son and the Father.

As I am researching this, I am discovering that the doctrine of Subordination is actually a position that the LDS Faith adheres to. It is just not known as such.

Simply put, the doctrine of Subordination teaches that the Son is distinct and separate to the Father and is less than the Father. Meaning the Son is subject to the authority of the Father. The Holy Spirit is subordinate/subject to the Father and the Son.

Issue that caused the division between Arianism and the Council of Nicaea.

Because of the teaching of Arianus, he believed that because the Son was subordinate to the Father, this made the Son less than the Father, and therefore a created being. For those familiar with the Jehovah Witness Theophany can understand where this doctrine comes from.

According to my preliminary research, Arianism moved away from the original doctrine of Subordination and how the Father and Son were distinct from one another. This removal caused the Bishop in Alexandria to dispute his teaching. Because of this, the council was called to determine the divinity of Jesus Christ, the relationship between Christ and the father.

What ended up happening was that because those who were against the Arianistic doctrine, believed that Christ always held the same divinity with that of the Father. In this, not only did the council condemn the Arian Heresy, but they also denounced the doctrine that the Son could not be subordinate to the Father. Furthermore, instead of declaring that the Son and the Father were separate and distinct from one another, the Nicene council agreed that the Father and the Son were of the same substance and nature. This contradicts scripture on several levels.

The reason why I am posting this is to engage in discussion as to what others think, if they have heard about this, and what research they have done in regards to this.

tubaloth · #2 (**permalink**) 11-07-2009, 12:03 PM

The idea probably isn't knew. The title of it I have never heard of it.

Even though Christ is "less" then the Father is more out of honor because the Glory Goes to the Father. Its not in any way limited to power. Christ like of us know that is through Heavenly Father that we gain all that we have.

Snow · #3 (**permalink**) 11-07-2009, 08:14 PM

Prior to Nicaea in 325 CE subordinationism was the mainstream orthodox view.

Even after Nicaea it was prominent until the Emperor Theodosius outlawed in in 381.

mrmarklin · #4 (**permalink**) 11-07-2009, 08:17 PM

The idea that Christ is "less" than the Father was imputed into Arianism because of the idea that Christ is a created creature of God. Which is true, but the rest of the world lacks a clear understanding of the benefits of keeping this, our secnd Estate.

Church doctrine teaches that Christ is now a God unto himself, and not at all inferior to the Father in any way, having followed all the commandments. We also have this opportunity.

Remember during Christ's lifetime, He said be ye therefore perfect even as my Father in heaven is perfect. After His death he said unto the Nephites: "I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father is perfect." In this scripture Christ puts Himself on the same plane as the Father. There is no inequality or Subordination. He is a Co-Equal member of the Godhead.

Stidgeion · #5 (**permalink**) 11-07-2009, 09:19 PM

So if Christ is a co-equal member of the Godhead .. if the Father, Christ and the Holy Ghost held a Conferance ...who would be the presideing authority?

prisonchaplain · #6 (**permalink**) 11-08-2009, 02:26 AM

Stidgeion...uh...could it be...hmmm...dad?

Snow · #7 (**permalink**) 11-08-2009, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmarklin

The idea that Christ is "less" than the Father was imputed into Arianism because of the idea that Christ is a created creature of God. Which is true, but the rest of the world lacks a clear understanding of the benefits of keeping this, our secnd Estate.

Church doctrine teaches that Christ is now a God unto himself, and not at all inferior to the Father in any way, having followed all the commandments. We also have this opportunity.

Remember during Christ's lifetime, He said be ye therefore perfect even as my Father in heaven is perfect. After His death he said unto the Nephites: "I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father is perfect." In this scripture Christ puts Himself on the same plane as the Father. There is no inequality or Subordination. He is a Co-Equal member of the Godhead.

That would be incorrect. LDS theology is subordinate theology.

Here Jeffrey Holland quotes official Church doctrine: "And there is, of course, that always deferential subordination to His Father that had Jesus say, “Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.” “My father is greater than I.” (The Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He Hath Sent Elder Jeffrey R. Holland Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles)

Consistent with the idea that the Father is the "only true God," the Prophet also preached "subordinationism," the idea that the Son and Spirit are subordinate in power, rank, and glory to the Father. "Any person that had seen the heavens opened knows that there are three personages in the heavens who hold the keys of power, and one [the Father] presides over all." (Restoring the Ancient Church: Joseph Smith and Early Christianity - Barry Bickmore referencing The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p 312)

miztrniceguy · #8 (**permalink**) 11-08-2009, 06:35 AM

I also believe the The Father is the presiding authority in the Godhead, Him being the Patriarch and all.

symphonyofdissent · #9 (**permalink**) 11-08-2009, 08:14 AM

It seems to me that the problem with the dispute over arianism and the nicene creed is not subordination but the fact that by this point in history the church had moved away from the doctrine of preexistence and the notion of mankind's divine potential. Thus, the church began to view the world in a binary. Something was either of God and therefore absolutely perfect and equal, or created and therefore lesser. This gap was unbridgeable. Therefore, saying that Christ was less than the father would mean that christ was a created being and therefore could not be God. Thus, the distortion is in the fact that the divide between man and God was irrevocably widened by the falling church.