Agency and laws

[mordorbund]

I've noticed whenever we have a lesson on Agency in church, comments are usually shared about Soviet Russia and how agency was limited by enforcing atheism. What are your thoughts on law and Agency?

Can political laws restrict Agency? If so, in what way?

(I know there's another thread on agency going on right now, but it has another focus and I didn't want to detract from it.)

[hordak]

Originally Posted by mordorbund

I've noticed whenever we have a lesson on Agency in church, comments are usually shared about Soviet Russia and how agency was limited by enforcing atheism. What are your thoughts on law and Agency?

Can political laws restrict Agency? If so, in what way?

(I know there's another thread on agency going on right now, but it has another focus and I didn't want to detract from it.)

Interesting thing about the question is many answer it based on the issue itself rather than principle.

Commie Russia outlaws religious worship, many will say it violates agency.
State bans SSM or gambling, and they say people still have the agency to do that they just have to break the law, and they still have the choice to break the law. (Which would also be true of Christians in the USSR.

I would say no. Laws can restrict it, make it harder to act on agency, but it can't fully take it away.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I love the book "Man's Search for Meaning" by Viktor Frankel. In the book he concludes, while in a Nazi concentration camp, that even if everything is taken away you still have your agency, even if the only choice is to love your persecutors instead of hating them.

[threepercent]

man cannot rob man of agency.

we can loose our agency by our choices though.

[mordorbund]

Originally Posted by threepercent

man cannot rob man of agency.

we can loose our agency by our choices though.

Would you care to elaborate on how we can lose our agency through our own choices?
(please elaborate on how man cannot rob man of agency as well, but the other one is the one I'd really like to understand).

[threepercent]

Agency is about law. not commandments, but law, big difference. A commandment may change, but a law does not.

Agency contains two choices. one of those choices leads to "LIBERTY" the other leads to "BONDAGE"

(Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself. )

when we choose liberty, we gain more choices until we reach perfection and all choices are available to us.

when we choose captivity, we loose choices until we have none left.

how does this apply to Law vrs Commandments? look to the temporal world for a type. we can fly (more choices) because we understand and bring ourselves into compliance with the laws that govern flight. we use the laws that regulate gravity and thrust and high and low pressure systems and build composites and engines..... and make planes. by bringing ourselves into compliance with the laws we can achieve desired outcomes.

EVERYTHING that comes from Father is both temporal and spiritually tuned to bring about the desired outcome of eternal life and joy.

*******************

Man may remove some choices (this is really freedom, not agency) , but not the ones that will enable you to gain eternal life. you can always forgive and love.

Abinadi was in chains, and put to death, most of his freedom and choices were removed by man.

his agency remained. He was still able to choose to follow the Lord. His is now worlds without end. how would you picture his agency now compared to those who put him to death?

these things are NOT the same:
freedom
choice
agency
liberty

we cannot be "free to choose liberty" if they all mean the same thing.

greater obedience to God yields greater freedom.

now watch this:

YouTube - Moral Agency (LDS Prophets Mormon Message) Natural Law

feel free to pm me with questions.

[mordorbund]

Originally Posted by threepercent

when we choose liberty, we gain more choices until we reach perfection and all choices are available to us.

when we choose captivity, we loose choices until we have none left.

*******************

Abinadi was in chains, and put to death, most of his freedom and choices were removed by man.

his agency remained. He was still able to choose to follow the Lord. His is now worlds without end. how would you picture his agency now compared to those who put him to death?

I agree with most of what you wrote. I have some follow-up questions about Agency being limited or expanded based on a choice.

Let's say my twin brother and I go on different paths. He chooses a morally and physically upright life, while I choose to take up chain smoking and heavy drinking. I have heard it said (similar to what you wrote) that now he has more choices (sometimes the claim is made of more Agency) than I do because he is free to run farther, longer, etc than I. He can wake up without the need to grab a cigarrette in the morning. The flip side of the coin is that he can't hold his liquor like I can, nor can he smoke a full pack of cigarettes without physically wretching. So it looks like I have the freedom to make some choices that are unavailable to him.

Is his Agency really greater? Does he have a larger choice set? Or do we still have the same Agency but a different choice set?

[Webster]

Originally Posted by threepercent

these things are NOT the same:
freedom
choice
agency
liberty

I agree. But, could you explain more what agency is to you? What is its definition? Do the scriptures use it according to that definition, or in a limited or specific manner?

[threepercent]

ok, its really really tough to write out how this works.


it takes hours to do just a introductory class on it.


there are two choices, each has a path, and a destination.


_______________ O

_______________ O


its easy to get liberty and bondage mixed up because you are BOUND in both cases.

in the first case, you have to CHOOSE the destination (or outcome) and then if you want that outcome you MUST bind yourself to the path (or action).


this is liberty.


in the second case you CHOOSE the path (or action) (normally this is done reactionary) and then you are BOUND to the outcome.

Binding YOURSELF to the path (or action) is called liberty

being bound to the destination (or outcome) is called bondage.


now understand this is just how we do it. the law is what says what path leads to what destination.

the natural man will choose bondage each time because the "path" is always easier on that road because the consequences come later.

Father knows the end of all paths. and even though you may be able to smoke a pack a day and hold your liquor, while winning footraces. it cannot lead to eternal life. it is bondage.


Agency is the stewardship (you are an agent) and ability to choose between different outcomes pertaining to eternal life or captivity.

Freedom is the ability to act on a choice.


you can have choices without having agency, but you cannot have agency without choices.

liberty is the result of a choice, or the thing you choose, not the act of choosing or the ability to choose.

[Webster]

If agency is a stewardship, whose steward are we, and where do the scriptures teach about agency and being an agent in that way?

I also thought stewardship was a specific type of agency and not the other way around.