Trinity Revisited

[Justice]

I have enjoyed the recent thread about the Trinity. It is something I have tried to understand for most of my life.

I have a friend at work who sits in my office at lunch and we discuss religion. He believes in the Trinity, I do not. So, I have followed the other thread with great interest.

Last night, as I sat pondering the topic, I think I came to an understanding of what it would take to believe in the Trinity. I was looking at it wrong, and trying to find the error in the wrong place.

The difference isn't in who or what we believe God is, because both sides believe He is everything mentioned in the Bible. To say, "Well the Bible says.." in response to someone else is nothing but a jab or shot intending to imply the other person has misinterpreted the words.

Last night, I backed up a bit, before you even open the Bible.

What do Trinitarians believe "spirit" is?

What do "LDS" believe "spirit" is?

You will find that these answers will drive how the words are interpreted.

If you believe spirit is not matter, and that it exists as more of a thought than a body, then the logical outcome of reading the Bible will be the Trinity.

If you believe spirit is matter, and that God's spirit body is matter; confined to a location as a Being, then the logical outcome for you will be that He is a different Being than the Son.

I am convinced this is the root of the difference.

[LDSChristian]

Originally Posted by Justice

I have enjoyed the recent thread about the Trinity. It is something I have tried to understand for most of my life.

I have a friend at work who sits in my office at lunch and we discuss religion. He believes in the Trinity, I do not. So, I have followed the other thread with great interest.

Last night, as I sat pondering the topic, I think I came to an understanding of what it would take to believe in the Trinity. I was looking at it wrong, and trying to find the error in the wrong place.

The difference isn't in who or what we believe God is, because both sides believe He is everything mentioned in the Bible. To say, "Well the Bible says.." in response to someone else is nothing but a jab or shot intending to imply the other person has misinterpreted the words.

Last night, I backed up a bit, before you even open the Bible.

What do Trinitarians believe "spirit" is?

What do "LDS" believe "spirit" is?

You will find that these answers will drive how the words are interpreted.

If you believe spirit is not matter, and that it exists as more of a thought than a body, then the logical outcome of reading the Bible will be the Trinity.

If you believe spirit is matter, and that God's spirit body is matter; confined to a location as a Being, then the logical outcome for you will be that He is a different Being than the Son.

I am convinced this is the root of the difference.

Mormonism and the nature of God/God is a Spirit - FAIRMormon

Just look at the site I gave. That should explain it.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Jesus Christ is praying to God the Father and acknowledging Him as the only true God.

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

[anatess]

Justice, awesome!

[prisonchaplain]

You are on to something, Justice. I think of how we speak of the Spirit around my church. "Wow...that was a great service today--the Spirit of God was just thick in the place!" "You could sure feel God's presence today!" "The Spirit really swept over us today." "I could really sense God in the house!" etc. You are right...we just never envision God being limited to a body, except when we speak of Jesus.

[Vanhin]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

You are on to something, Justice. I think of how we speak of the Spirit around my church. "Wow...that was a great service today--the Spirit of God was just thick in the place!" "You could sure feel God's presence today!" "The Spirit really swept over us today." "I could really sense God in the house!" etc. You are right...we just never envision God being limited to a body, except when we speak of Jesus.

We also speak the same way, but we understand that what we are describing is the influence of the Holy Ghost. To latter-day saints, the Holy Ghost is a divine person of spirit, like the Savior was before he was born into mortality.

There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter. (D&C 131:7-8)

Because we claim that spirit is also matter, only more fine or pure, if we were to behold the Holy Ghost right now (with purer eyes), we would see that he is a Man, without a physical body. His spirit body has hands, arms, legs, feet, a head, and so forth, just like Jesus Christ did when He appeared to the brother of Jared before his mortal advent (See Ether 3). Our spirit bodies are also in the image and likeness of God, being his offspring. Our physical bodies resemble our spirits, only they have the shortcomings and blemishes of mortality.

We don't think of spirits as intangible wisps that don't take up space in existence. I'm sure you have read it before but that Ether 3 reference is really interesting reading concerning our understanding of spirits.

Regards,
Vanhin

[beefche]

We also believe that the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit is a spirit for a reason:

D&C 130:22

The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

[Traveler]

As a scientist, a lot can be explained about what a spirit is, from a scientific point of view concerning consistency (isotropic) if spirit matter is matter that includes in its existence at least one additional dimension separate from our 3 dimensional physical self. It is possible that spirit could be 3 dimensional being as well as long as one or more (but less than all 3) dimensions existed outside of our 3 dimensions.

Mathematically I can solve the problems of space time in relationship to G-d if G-d is a being that is capable of utilizing at least one additional dimension. But this creates problems for Trinitarians and several other concepts. For example - G-d may seem formless in our dimensional space but it would not correct that G-d is without body or discernable parts (as we are in 3 dimensional space time).

But under such concept G-d would have access to unlimited power but so would any other such being. So here is a thought. Perhaps there is a intelligence (light of truth) factor that maintains “balance” that is necessary for existence on such a plane. In other words only a G-d like unto G-d could so exist - therefore he must train us to be like him before we could exist in such a state that would be sustainable. This would mean that being one with G-d is more than just a theological theory but an actual reality that cannot be circumvented (even by divine miracle) Thus being like G-d must be achieved for all that live “with” G-d.

The Traveler

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

Here is how my last discussion went on the topic of the Trinity and Mormonism.

My question: You believe that God is spirit right?

evangelical Christian: Yes, He is spirit.

My Question: Okay, keeping that in mind, The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are of one essence and substance right? This is according to the Nicene Creed and the Athenasian Creed right?

evangelical Christian: Yes, that is true, they are of the same essence and substance.

My Question: Have you carefully read the Nicene Creed?

evangelical Christian: Umm, no why?

My Question/Response: Well, if you had not really taken the time to read what the Nicene Creed says, then how are you confident in knowing exactly what it says as to the nature of The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit?

This was where he started floundering. Keep in mind how evangelical Christians view the Trinity and how the Latter-day Saints view the Godhead and the Nicene Creed (and it is important to follow this).

evangelical Christian: I am not really sure, but I know the bible says that the Father, Son and Spirit are one manifested in three different beings and not three separate Gods.

My question: If I were to share with you exactly what the Nicene Creed actually says, would you say that what it says is Biblical or Unbiblical?

evangelical Christian: It is biblical, why would it be unbiblical.

I then pull out a printed version of the Nicene Creed and then had the person read the first part of it:

"We believe in One God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of Heaven and Earth, of all that is, seen and unseen"

I then had him stop right there and then re-read that first part. My question went along the lines of this: So, who created the Heavens and the Earth - According to the Nicene Creed?

evangelical Christian: Well it says here that God, the Father created Heaven and Earth.

Okay, so let us see what the Bible has to say. We know that Genesis says that God created Heaven and Earth right?

Evangelical Christian: That is correct.

My question/response: Okay, but later on, we have several New Testament Passages that say something different. For instance - John 1:1 says that in the Beginning was the Word, that this word was with God, and that this word was God. It then goes on to say that the Word created all things in Heaven and Earth, that which is seen and unseen (I then point to the Passage in my NASB version). Now, we know that John is not talking about the Father right?

evangelical Christian: Right, because John is talking about Christ, and that Christ is the word.

My question: So you agree that Christ was in the Beginning with God right?

evangelical Christian: Yes, and that he is God.

Here is where it got really interesting.

My question: Okay, so in Genesis, God creates Heaven and Earth. John says that the Word was with God, and that the Word is God and that the Word created all things.

evangelical Christian: Yes, that is correct, but if you go further...

My response/question: Yes, let us go further. John states that this word came into the world by becoming flesh. Now, who came into the world by taking upon himself mortal flesh?

evangelical Christian: Well Christ did, but...

My response: No but's we are analyzing the Nicene creed here in light of the Trinitarian doctrine and teaching. We have already established that God is spirit. We have established that God is the Maker of Heaven and Earth. We have established that God was the word and that this word existed with God and that the Word was God from the beginning who created all things. We also know that the Word became flesh according to the Testimony of John. So, if God became flesh, then that means God could no longer be considered spirit correct?

evangelical Christian: Well yeah, if you are interpreting it that way, but you see..

My response: No, it is not a matter of how I am interpreting it, it is a matter of what we are reading and seeing it say. Do you not see that the Nicene Creed says that God is the Almighty Father, maker of Heaven and Earth? (I had him read it again, then read the Genesis account, and then read John 1). According to the first part of the Nicene creed, Genesis 1 and John 1, who is the maker of Heaven and Earth? And, who came and took upon themselves mortal flesh? Are they the same person and being? And, if they are the same person and being, does that mean that their essence and substance has changed - meaning that God could no longer be considered spirit, but he took on a mortal body of flesh and bone?

This is why it gets interesting because the person I had this dialogue with started showing signs of confusion and wanted to try and steer the conversation further than where I wanted it to go. It is important that we stay within the context of the discussion and focus on bits and pieces at a time.

My question: Okay, so we have the Word becoming Flesh and that the Word created all things. Is John the only one that spoke of the Word being the one who created all things in Heaven and Earth? No, here are a couple of passages of scripture we have to consider.

Colossians 1:16-17 teach that it was Christ, the prophesied Messiah who created all things.

Again, I go from beginning to this point.

Evangelical Christian: May I ask how this relates to teh Trinity and Mormonism and how you are able to prove that the Trinity is unbiblical?

My response/question; We will get to that point here. Let us read the Nicene Creed - I then had him read the next part. He then read it and I stopped him.

evangelical Christian: Well this says exactly what I believe and what the Bible teaches.

My response and question: I agree as well, but notice a couple things in the statement about Christ. 1) The father created all things through the power and authority of Jesus Christ; 2) Christ is begotten of God and is From God - Light from Light, and Truth from Truth. Now, how can a single person beget a single person? We already know that Christ came down and took upon himself a physical body of flesh and bone. We already know that he existed with God. We even know that Christ is God, but his he The God, the Almighty Father, and the Most High? And, finally, 3) He came down and was the Savior of Mankind.

evangelical Christian: Well it does say that the Father and the son are one being.

My response and answer: Yes, I agree, but how can they be one Being if they are two separate and distinct persons from one another insomuch that the Son possesses a body of flesh and bone and that the Father is Spirit? They can't be one being , unless you believe that Christ truly is God and that he abandoned Heaven and became Christ, the Savior, only to ascend again and became the Holy Spirit? (Which is modalism). We have the testimony of John that Christ existed with the Father - The word was with God, the word was God, and the Word created all things.

1) Christ is the Word,
2) Christ was with God
3) Christ is God
4) Christ created all things in heaven and earth.

Yet,

1) The Father created all things through his Son
2) His Son is the Only Begotten of God and Man (Virgin Birth)
3) The Son possesses a body of flesh and bone, resurrected and glorified.

Do you still believe that God is spirit and that the Trinity is true?

As the discussion progressed and I shared more scriptures within the Biblical text, I showed my evangelical Pastor the reality of how the Trinity did not properly meet the Biblical Standards. How that Christ was God of the Old Testament and that the Nicene creed did not fully establish the true nature and reality of the Godhead. I then showed him how Christ's prayer referred to Christ referring to his former glory he held with the Father. If he was the Father to begin with, why would he pray for his former glory to be restored unto him once again? My pastor friend could not answer that question. My answer to the question is because Christ held the same glory as his father and both are separate and distinct from one another and not some cosmic uncomprehensible being - especially when Christ said that the purpose of his mission was to testify of the Father and himself.

[Dr T]

Hi STS,

part of the above you said,

My response: No but's we are analyzing the Nicene creed here in light of the Trinitarian doctrine and teaching. We have already established that God is spirit. We have established that God is the Maker of Heaven and Earth. We have established that God was the word and that this word existed with God and that the Word was God from the beginning who created all things. We also know that the Word became flesh according to the Testimony of John. So, if God became flesh, then that means God could no longer be considered spirit correct?

"I believe in God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and Earth and in Jesus Christ His only son our Lord." When Jesus, the only personage took on humanity he added a human nature to his divinity. That is not talking about the Father taking on humanity. I will not go farther because I doubt you'll read what I'm saying anyway but thought I'd give it a shot to explain where I think you are reaching.

[Jason_J]

Originally Posted by SeattleTruthSeeker

My response: No but's we are analyzing the Nicene creed here in light of the Trinitarian doctrine and teaching. We have already established that God is spirit. We have established that God is the Maker of Heaven and Earth. We have established that God was the word and that this word existed with God and that the Word was God from the beginning who created all things. We also know that the Word became flesh according to the Testimony of John. So, if God became flesh, then that means God could no longer be considered spirit correct?

No, this is not correct. It doesn't mean that God is no longer spirit. It means that God is not only spirit due to the Incarnation. Also, Trinitarians are specifically talking about God the Son, and not the Father or the Holy Spirit. Since Trinitarians are not Unitarians, Oneness Pentecostals, or Modalists, they affirm that it was only the Son that was born on this earth of the Virgin Mary, and not the Father or the Holy Spirit. So, the Father and the Holy Spirit remain spirit-only, while the Son is both spirit and embodied, according to Trinitarian theology.

My response: No, it is not a matter of how I am interpreting it, it is a matter of what we are reading and seeing it say. Do you not see that the Nicene Creed says that God is the Almighty Father, maker of Heaven and Earth? (I had him read it again, then read the Genesis account, and then read John 1). According to the first part of the Nicene creed, Genesis 1 and John 1, who is the maker of Heaven and Earth? And, who came and took upon themselves mortal flesh? Are they the same person and being? And, if they are the same person and being, does that mean that their essence and substance has changed - meaning that God could no longer be considered spirit, but he took on a mortal body of flesh and bone?

I think that we have to be clear about what the entirety of the Biblical record states about the creation, as well as what LDS believe on that issue. Jesus Christ did not create the world alone. According to the Gospel Principles manual, He created under the direction of the Father. The chapter on "Our Heavenly Father" says that God the Father created the heavens and the earth and all things that are in them "through His Son, Jesus Christ". It also refers to Alma 30:44 which refers to the "Supreme Creator". Surely if only Jesus is the creator, that verse would not belong in the chapter on Heavenly Father.

Also, remember that the Nicene Creed itself, while referring to the Father as "maker of Heaven and earth" also states, in relation to Jesus Christ, "through Him all things were made". This affirms exactly what the LDS Church teaches: creation was done through Jesus Christ, and the Father is also the Creator.

Also, Trinitarianism does not teach that the Father and the Son are the same Person. I already referred to non-Trinitarian theologies, such as Modalism and Unitarianism, that believe that. Trinitarians view such a belief as a heresy. Trinitarianism is the belief that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons that are one in being. The word "being" in this context is not used interchangeably with "person", as we may do today. Instead, it is a translation of the word "ousia" (remember that the Trinity doctrine was formulated in a non-English speaking world, so we are using translations of Greek/Latin words), which can refer to the "nature" or "essence" of something.

Also, part of orthodox Trinitarian theology is something called the "hypostatic union". This is why the "essence" of God did not change due to the incarnation. The divine nature is distinct from the human nature, so, when God the Son came to this earth, He remained divine, yet He also became human. Jesus thus had two natures, and still has both. And since Trinitarians believe that the Son is distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit, Jesus' incarnation had no effect on Them, since it was only He that came to the earth and became human.

My question: Okay, so we have the Word becoming Flesh and that the Word created all things. Is John the only one that spoke of the Word being the one who created all things in Heaven and Earth? No, here are a couple of passages of scripture we have to consider.

Colossians 1:16-17 teach that it was Christ, the prophesied Messiah who created all things.

See above. The Nicene Creed teaches that through Jesus all things were made ("through Him all things were made"). Thus, the Nicene Creed affirms that God created through Jesus Christ, in accordance with Ephesians 3:9 and Hebrews 1:2.

My response and question: I agree as well, but notice a couple things in the statement about Christ. 1) The father created all things through the power and authority of Jesus Christ; 2) Christ is begotten of God and is From God - Light from Light, and Truth from Truth. Now, how can a single person beget a single person? We already know that Christ came down and took upon himself a physical body of flesh and bone. We already know that he existed with God. We even know that Christ is God, but his he The God, the Almighty Father, and the Most High? And, finally, 3) He came down and was the Savior of Mankind.

evangelical Christian: Well it does say that the Father and the son are one being.

My response and answer: Yes, I agree, but how can they be one Being if they are two separate and distinct persons from one another insomuch that the Son possesses a body of flesh and bone and that the Father is Spirit? They can't be one being , unless you believe that Christ truly is God and that he abandoned Heaven and became Christ, the Savior, only to ascend again and became the Holy Spirit? (Which is modalism). We have the testimony of John that Christ existed with the Father - The word was with God, the word was God, and the Word created all things.

I think you are confused as to how exactly the word "being" is used by Trinitarians. As mentioned, it is not used interchangeably with "person". This seems to be the problem here (and it is a common one). Trinitarians affirm that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons who are of the same essence/nature, which is sometimes also referred to as "being" or "substance", which are translations of the Greek "ousia" and Latin "substantia". Christ truly is God, as John 1 affirms, yet that does not mean that He is God the Father.

I then showed him how Christ's prayer referred to Christ referring to his former glory he held with the Father. If he was the Father to begin with, why would he pray for his former glory to be restored unto him once again?

The Trinity doctrine denies that Jesus was the Father. That is modalism.

I think the key to understanding your view of the Nicene Creed is to understand how the word "being" is used (i.e., not interchangeably with person), as well as understanding the "hypostatic union" doctrine, which goes hand in hand with the Trinity.