"Evil Spirit"

[Seminarysnoozer]

Sorry, this may sound like a silly question but I couldn't come up with a reasonable answer myself ... Does an evil spirit really know what "evil" is? If yes, where did it get that knowledge without experiencing the knowledge of good and evil?

I would think it is only through the experience of this life that we can understand what good and evil are. As far as that goes, Satan, himself really doesn't understand good and evil, then, right?

Maybe they do evil things without understanding what they are doing and therefore do not have a knowledge of good and evil but are still the same, evil. It is hard to understand how an "evil spirit" knows to influence evil without understanding the difference between good and evil. Could it inadvertently influence good, without knowing the difference, without having a specific motive? Does the "evil spirit" really have evil as its goal or is it just 'being himself'?

[beefche]

How, then, do you explain that God damned Satan? Does God not allow anyone to have full knowledge before He damns them? Satan will never have a body. A body is essential to salvation. If the work and glory of God is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life, then Satan cannot bring work or glory to God.

[annewandering]

Maybe satan thinks he is the one in the right. I would guess he does. anyway. It was only Adam and Eve who did not understand good and evil till the apple. Everyone else always knew.

[gopecon]

Anne you are on the right track - at least with the second part of your statement. Adam and Eve were innocent in the Garden partially because they did not fully remember their pre-Earth life. I think we had some understanding of good vs. evil before living here. What we didn't have was a lot of perspective, having been primarily influenced by God. Prior to Satan's rebellion we probably did not see much of that type of thing.

As for the nature of the Devil, I'm quite comfortable in going with the scriptures that say he is an enemy to all righteousness. He wasn't simply well intentioned but misguided, he wanted to dethrone God and take the Father's glory. He was an important figure then, so I think we can safely assume that he knew what he was doing.

[annewandering]

Oh satan was never well intentioned I am sure. Still I think he felt he was in the right being so wonderful and all. lol.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Originally Posted by beefche

How, then, do you explain that God damned Satan? Does God not allow anyone to have full knowledge before He damns them? Satan will never have a body. A body is essential to salvation. If the work and glory of God is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life, then Satan cannot bring work or glory to God.

"Damnation" is like not being accepted to the program of godhood. Are you saying that a person can only be kicked out of the program after they have gone through all the way with the program?

I think Satan is not capable of godhood due to his selfish nature. When a certain level of selfishness is exhibited it becomes impossible for that person to achieve what the course is intended for. Then, the person is kicked out.

There has to be a capacity for knowledge as well as the knowledge. Does a man know what it is like to give birth? Then how does God know what that is like? I believe the capacity to be 100% empathetic has to do with that. If a person is self centered, and God knows to what degree, then there is a point at which a person pulls themselves off that pathway by their nature, they are no longer capable of having "full knowledge".

The question though is if the "evil spirits" are kicked out before they really know what "evil" is as most would say that our knowledge of good and evil comes about by our experience in a mortal world.

[beefche]

I'm not understanding you. Are you saying that the All Knowing God does not know our pains and sufferings because he didn't suffer them, personally?

Further, you are assuming that they only way to knowledge is through this life. There had to have been sufficient knowledge to dam(n) someone from a kingdom of glory (telestial, terrestial or celestial). Satan and his followers (evil spirits because they do not have a body) are damned from glory. There had to have been knowledge for us to make a choice between following God's plan or following Satan.

We kept our first estate and thus, came to earth to receive our second estate, a body. A body allows us to become as God--He has a glorified body. The only way we can have a glorified body is to receive a body first. Satan cannot receive a body--thus he cannot be as God. But, that doesn't mean he didn't have sufficient knowledge to rebel against God and earn his place in outer darkness.

[Dravin]

"Damnation" is like not being accepted to the program of godhood. Are you saying that a person can only be kicked out of the program after they have gone through all the way with the program?

She's talking about outer darkness, aka becoming a son of perdition. Most of our descriptions of what it takes talk about having knowledge and rebelling against it. The dynamic for what constitutes knowledge may be different for those on the earth than it was in the premortal existence but just as man cannot be saved in ignorance neither can man become a son of perdition in ignorance, it takes rebellion which would be a conscious and informed rejection of God's truth. I suppose one can debate if a knowledge that you are choosing evil is required (but instead simply the knowledge that you aren't choosing God) but Alma suggests if Satan and his angels did not know good from evil they are blameless:

Originally Posted by Alma 29:5

5 Yea, and I know that good and evil have come before all men; he that knoweth not good from evil is blameless; but he that knoweth good and evil, to him it is given according to his desires, whether he desireth good or evil, life or death, joy or remorse of conscience.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by Seminarysnoozer

Sorry, this may sound like a silly question but I couldn't come up with a reasonable answer myself ... Does an evil spirit really know what "evil" is? If yes, where did it get that knowledge without experiencing the knowledge of good and evil?

I would think it is only through the experience of this life that we can understand what good and evil are. As far as that goes, Satan, himself really doesn't understand good and evil, then, right?

Maybe they do evil things without understanding what they are doing and therefore do not have a knowledge of good and evil but are still the same, evil. It is hard to understand how an "evil spirit" knows to influence evil without understanding the difference between good and evil. Could it inadvertently influence good, without knowing the difference, without having a specific motive? Does the "evil spirit" really have evil as its goal or is it just 'being himself'?

I believe that you ask a good question. I will give my opinion. In order to understand good and evil there are a few other things we must understand. Inclusive to that understanding is agency. Agency does not mean choice although choice is often associated with agency. I prefer to understand agency more in terms of discipline than mere choice. Many people think of choice as the answer to the statement “Pick one”. To me that is very different than what is involved in becoming a saint. I would also point out that the word disciple comes from the root meaning of discipline and that a master is one that has mastered the discipline. To me a disciple may have begun agency but only a master is free to exercise agency.

Now back to good and evil. Usually good is thought of in terms of benefit we receive and evil in terms of disadvantages we are stuck with (suffer) in the end. This concept, however, is incomplete. The great example of good is the redemptive sacrifice of Christ that is also called the atonement. Once we begin to understand the atonement as the defining principle of good we can begin to understand why Adam and Eve were required to fall and begin a process of discipline through repentance in order to come to knowledge of good. This good is the light of Christ. The absents of light is darkness likewise the absents of good is evil. The disadvantages that come because of evil (absents of good) are not the sources of evil but rather the byproduct. Through the experience of repentance and resulting atonement unto “salvation” we become as G-d knowing good from evil.

One thing I believe is grossly misunderstood. Many think that good is without flaw. That is not true. Good is that which results after the flaw or flaws have been redeemed. This is why evil spirits are evil - because they refuse to be redeemed but insist on the justice of self worthiness rather than giving up self as part of the suffering of repentance and becoming one (disciplined) in the act of love and compassion necessary for the atonement and rebirth as good (born of the spirit which is submission of the physical to the spirit).

In quick summary - G-d is good and we only come to knowledge of such a G-d and his goodness through the atonement. We come to knowledge of evil through the fall whereby we become subjects of sin. Thus only by the fall and the atonement do we obtain knowledge of good and evil.
The Traveler

[maiku]

Originally Posted by annewandering

Maybe satan thinks he is the one in the right. I would guess he does. anyway. It was only Adam and Eve who did not understand good and evil till the apple. Everyone else always knew.

This is my theory too. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is how I see it:

Intelligence (truth, light) comes only from our Heavenly Father. Since Satan is devoid of that light, he is without any truth. By not having also knowledge of what is true, he is full of falsities that he believes to be true, which could explain why he was convinced that his plan would work better than the plan of salvation.

It reminds me of Paul's prophecy of the apostasy

2 Tim 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.