Free will vs. all-knowing determinism...

[martybess]

b

I must be missing something here. I don't comprehend how God can not be all knowing and we not have agency.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by martybess

b

I must be missing something here. I don't comprehend how God can not be all knowing and we not have agency.

The question arises from the understanding that G-d created all things from nothing. Therefore, G-d is the aliment, first and only cause of all that exist. Such as or because G-d is the only initial parameter and the only cause of all exist and thus what happens; then G-d alone is responsible (or the singular cause) for what happens because of what he alone created.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Originally Posted by Traveler

I missed something here - how can G-d know something (have foreknowledge) if it has not yet been determined?

It may be determined, but it was not predetermined by God. God does not coerce us simply because he knows what we will do. It's still on us. That is why the wages of our sin is death, but the gift of our God is eternal life. We are not to be judged according to God's predetermined will for us, but according to our works. Then again, if we embrace God's love and God places our name in his book of life, then we find God's grace and mercy.

[kayne]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

It may be determined, but it was not predetermined by God. God does not coerce us simply because he knows what we will do. It's still on us. That is why the wages of our sin is death, but the gift of our God is eternal life. We are not to be judged according to God's predetermined will for us, but according to our works. Then again, if we embrace God's love and God places our name in his book of life, then we find God's grace and mercy.

this. i dont know why people have a hard time grasping he can be all knowing yet life is not predetermined as to be predetermined would imply God is forcing us to do everything....perhaps mailing us a weekly script to follow?

[rameumptom]

Originally Posted by mrmarklin

It's not so much God knows the future, it's that He sees it in real time. It's "before Him". He did not cause anyone's actions and has allowed man total agency.

That being said, there is a plan. God has placed good and wise spirits on this earth to help him fulfill His plan. And He has good reason to believe that based on our actions in the pre existence, and certain people being fore-ordained to do certain things (such as Joseph Smith restoring the Gospel) His plan will ultimately succeed. In fact He has seen the culmination of His plans and has revealed them to many of His prophets.

Seeing something in "real time" makes no difference to the philosophy of libertarian free will. It really is a non sequitur.

Knowing the future or having it present before you in an "eternal now" means there is no real time. God still knows what is coming up in the future, and so he cannot change it, as it is already determined. It is already determined whether we will steal that piece of candy from the grocery store or not, and whether God will step in and heal us or not.

For those who believe in libertarian free will (I haven't quite decided yet, myself), God knows all things as they currently are to this moment in time. For future things, he is the great chess master. He can anticipate future moves, especially those in the near future. This may be why many big revelations (Rev, D&C 87) are very detailed in events that are shortly to come to pass, but become less detailed further in the future they go. It may also be why some prophesies fail, such as Jesus predicting the 2nd Coming would occur in that same generation.

The point would be that God still knows everything, except for details of the future. He knows how the universe functions, the principles that run all things in the universe, the solid truths that never change, and he can anticipate that this will be true forever into the future. Then, he can tell Isaiah to let King Hezekiah know to prepare himself to die, but then give him another 15 years of life when Hezekiah humbles himself and prays for mercy from God.

So, while I see the value of God knowing all things in futurity, I also see the points made by those considering free will and how it is not very compatible with foreknowledge or seeing in real time what will happen in the future.

[martybess]

Time or the lack of it to God changes everything.

Our definition/comprehension of "free will" is limited.

If man believed it was all planned, what do you think would happen? To me the thought is scary.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

It may be determined, but it was not predetermined by God. God does not coerce us simply because he knows what we will do. It's still on us. That is why the wages of our sin is death, but the gift of our God is eternal life. We are not to be judged according to God's predetermined will for us, but according to our works. Then again, if we embrace God's love and God places our name in his book of life, then we find God's grace and mercy.

Thank you for your response - this appears to me that we agree much more than I thought. It does appear that there is one small point to which we may not agree. In LDS theology man has eternal intelligence that determines for each of us our agency and individual will. But as I understand Evangelicals - G-d alone created 100% all of the factors that contribute to each individual including all factors that determines their individuality and will.

It would seem to me that it does not matter if G-d currently coerces or if he "created" the parameters and circumstances that would over time coerce us and determine our individual will. In other words did G-d create our will or was it not created by G-d? If G-d created it - then he justly should be responsible for it - if G-d did not create our will - Where did it come from or who or what did create our will?

Again, according to LDS theology the “intelligence” of man was not created by G-d and is eternal with G-d. And from man’s intelligence we have will - G-d being all knowing therefore knows our will and therefore gives to man the gift to exercise his independent uncreated (by G-d) will. Thus man is justly judged.

What I do not understand is how can man be judged of G-d and eternally condemned for something that G-d alone created and therefore - Determined. And it does not seem to me to matter that much if we call it pre-determined or just “created”. If our will is what G-d alone created - it is not our will but his as the only actual and real creator of it.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Originally Posted by Traveler

It would seem to me that it does not matter if G-d currently coerces or if he "created" the parameters and circumstances that would over time coerce us and determine our individual will. In other words did G-d create our will or was it not created by G-d? If G-d created it - then he justly should be responsible for it - if G-d did not create our will - Where did it come from or who or what did create our will?

God created us so that we would truly be free to choose him and his ways--or not. He created us in such a way that we own relationship with him--be it one of adoration and obedience, or of rebellion.

I get that a few here believe that because of the traditional doctrine of creation-out-of-nothing, God would have to be culpable for our decisions. It is also understandable why some would believe the LDS teaching of eternal intelligence would let God of the hook. However, if God made us to be free, then he can make us such that we bare responsibility for our decisions.

[rameumptom]

Traveler, in the case that God knows our future prior to us being created, even if we have a will that is separate from his creation, it all ends up the same. If he knows that in creating a being that he is creating Satan, then why go through with the creation, whether the will is created or just added as an ingredient in the creation?

It is like a cook knowing that a batch of flour is rancid, but still adds it into a recipe, already knowing before hand that it will spoil the end product. Just how would that meet his eternal purpose.

Second, if God knows the entire future from his very beginning (whatever that means), then he has no free will of his own, as his choices are already pre-determined. He cannot determine later whether he will create or not create, bless or curse, etc.

For LDS, God's work and glory is to bring about man's immortality and eternal life (Moses 1:39). Yet, if God has already pre-determined the outcome, why send us all through this path?

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

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God created us so that we would truly be free to choose him and his ways--or not. He created us in such a way that we own relationship with him--be it one of adoration and obedience, or of rebellion.

I get that a few here believe that because of the traditional doctrine of creation-out-of-nothing, God would have to be culpable for our decisions. It is also understandable why some would believe the LDS teaching of eternal intelligence would let God of the hook. However, if God made us to be free, then he can make us such that we bare responsibility for our decisions.

I thought we agreed that G-d knows what will determine the future? Now, if G-d did not create what-ever that is that determines our future - where did it come from? If G-d created it - how are we (anyone but G-d) responsible for it?

The Traveler