Free will vs. all-knowing determinism...

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by rameumptom

Traveler, in the case that God knows our future prior to us being created, even if we have a will that is separate from his creation, it all ends up the same. If he knows that in creating a being that he is creating Satan, then why go through with the creation, whether the will is created or just added as an ingredient in the creation?

It is like a cook knowing that a batch of flour is rancid, but still adds it into a recipe, already knowing before hand that it will spoil the end product. Just how would that meet his eternal purpose.

Second, if God knows the entire future from his very beginning (whatever that means), then he has no free will of his own, as his choices are already pre-determined. He cannot determine later whether he will create or not create, bless or curse, etc.

For LDS, God's work and glory is to bring about man's immortality and eternal life (Moses 1:39). Yet, if God has already pre-determined the outcome, why send us all through this path?

As a parent you should know the answer to your proposal. Because of our experience we can often see things in the future. For example we realize that if our children do not study they will not pass subjects in school. We can see that they will fail because of their “free will” to ignore good study habits. But just because we know they will fail does not mean that we avoid placing them into the testing environment.

Often as an engineer I am asked to look over a proposed design. Because of my experience I can often determine whether or not a proposed design will succeed or fail. But just because I know in studying the design this does not prevent the “free will” of the company with whom I am consulting from “trying” it or not.

The point with which we are considering – has to do with whom or what determines our path through life. PC and I agree that if that even if G-d knows what it is that determines our path that does not have actual bearing on our agency – The point that I have tried to make is simple – If G-d controls (created) that which determines our journey then he determines the outcome – Thus if G-d creates us out of nothing then he is responsible for all the ingredients that he uses.

But if there is an ingredient over which he has no control – then and only then is the choice an actual choice. Now here is the justice of G-d. Because there is something over which he has no control then and only then is there justice to reward the correct choice and punish the incorrect choice. Even if G-d knows the choice in advance – there is justice only if he does not control that which determines the choice. My point is – that if G-d alone is the creator and he alone created what determines what we are and what we choose – then the justice of G-d is unjust and Satan was right to rebel against blame of those lost because of things created and determined only by G-d. And that bring us to your question of why would G-d use inferior ingredients that he created? The answer is so obvious to me – G-d did not create the inferior ingredients – and since G-d did not create the inferior ingredients they had to have existed prior to what G-d created. That is my understanding and logic. So – where do you suggest the inferior ingredients came from?

The Traveler

[Windseeker]

Originally Posted by Traveler

...PC and I agree that if that even if G-d knows what it is that determines our path that does not have actual bearing on our agency – The point that I have tried to make is simple – If G-d controls (created) that which determines our journey then he determines the outcome – Thus if G-d creates us out of nothing then he is responsible for all the ingredients that he uses.

But isn't that where you and PC disagree?? PC believes we were created out of nothing.

That is my understanding and logic. So – where do you suggest the inferior ingredients came from?

The Traveler

Is that for PC or Rame? I'm having a hard time following this thread. I liked what you said about parents. We can forsee some of the mistakes our kids will make.

Why doesn't G-d create a being and just automatically instill in that being all his knowledge and experience?

[prisonchaplain]

Originally Posted by Traveler

I thought we agreed that G-d knows what will determine the future? Now, if G-d did not create what-ever that is that determines our future - where did it come from? If G-d created it - how are we (anyone but G-d) responsible for it?

The Traveler

Are you asking me if we have created our own futures? I suppose each of us has. Jesus told us that it is I who will reap what I sow.

[Dove]

Hello, everyone;
Traveler, I really appreciate your point of view and beliefs. It sounds like you have a lot of doctrinal references to back up what you are saying.

I strongly agree with you. You have said far better than I could have what I have already believed on this topic.

I was taught years ago in seminary that God is all-knowing. My seminary teacher taught us using a book and the law of gravity. A lot of the other students struggled with reconciling how God could know everything and yet not be responsible for causing our actions. Also, why should we go through earth life if He already knew the choices we would make.

I believed the lesson at face value at the time; meaning, I accepted it as true as much for it being taught as doctrine of the LDS church rather than truly understanding the doctrine and its ramifications...

As I've studied the scriptures over the years, I am convinced of the teaching that God is all knowing/omniscient. I believe this both because of how often it is quoted in the scriptures and the several people I have met who have the gift of knowing me and my thoughts through means other than my telling them or them simply observing me. I.E. knowing things about me they could have only known from a spiritual realm.

I also was told in a priesthood blessing years ago that I had agreed to having diabetes in this mortal state. It makes sense to me that I agreed to all the trials/tribulations that I have in this state as well as the diabetes. It just makes sense to me......

As far as whether God created us out of nothing, or simply organised us out of eternal matter, I also take the LDS teaching of this on faith. That we were never created, but; are eternal. However, PC brings up a good argument about God still creating us to have free agency and therefore accountability. Otherwise, it becomes quite murky (I've struggled with this doctrine a great deal) to me about how necessary opposition is and how condemned satan is for simply fulfilling prophesy in presenting to us a necessary part for us to truly have agency....Why should he be condemned to eternal outer darkness for doing what was needed to be done in the first place?

One argument is that the adversary still chose to do this and had he not, we still would have had opposition in our lives, regardless.

Any thoughts on this would be most appreciated.

Dove

[kayne]

Originally Posted by Dove

Hello, everyone;
Traveler, I really appreciate your point of view and beliefs. It sounds like you have a lot of doctrinal references to back up what you are saying.

I strongly agree with you. You have said far better than I could have what I have already believed on this topic.

I was taught years ago in seminary that God is all-knowing. My seminary teacher taught us using a book and the law of gravity. A lot of the other students struggled with reconciling how God could know everything and yet not be responsible for causing our actions. Also, why should we go through earth life if He already knew the choices we would make.

I believed the lesson at face value at the time; meaning, I accepted it as true as much for it being taught as doctrine of the LDS church as for truly understanding the doctrine and its ramifications...

As I've studied the scriptures over the years, I am convinced of the teaching that God is all knowing/omniscient. I believe this both because of how often it is quoted in the scriptures and the several people I have met who have the gift of knowing me and my thoughts through means other than my telling them or them simply observing me. I.E. knowing things about me they could have only known from a spiritual realm.

I also was told in a priesthood blessing years ago that I had agreed to having diabetes in this mortal state. It makes sense to me that I agreed to all the trials/tribulations that I have in this state as well as the diabetes. It just makes sense to me......

As far as whether God created us out of nothing, or simply organised us out of eternal matter, I also take the LDS teaching of this on faith. That we were never created, but; are eternal. However, PC brings up a good argument about God still creating us to have free agency and therefore accountability. Otherwise, it becomes quite murky (I've struggled with this doctrine a great deal) to me about how necessary opposition is and how condemned satan is for simply fulfilling prophesy in presenting to us a necessary part for us to truly have agency....Why should he be condemned to eternal outer darkness for doing what was needed to be done in the first place?

One argument is that the adversary still chose to do this and had he not, we still would have had opposition in our lives, regardless.

Any thoughts on this would be most appreciated.

Dove

the ultimate thing is no one actually had to sin really. we all made that choice. Satan just eggs us on. ultimately Satan didnt need to exist. Jesus didnt need to save us. but by virtue of our sinning we needed these people to do those roles. the whole point of Jesus's role is to save us because we sin. if we never sinned His role would not be needed.

one also must realize i think it was Enoch that sees this is the most wicked of all The Lord's creations....which is quite a telling statement to think this earth stands above all other earths in terms of sheer evil wickedness.

another way of seeing that is this group of people are so bad a Satan was bound to crop up. Lucifer just happened to be the one that wanted to do it.

now do other earths have a Satan? perhaps perhaps not. we do know during the 1000 years of peace we can still sin but sin is different and changed some sins wont exist any longer. i say some earths might lack a Satan because during that thousand years Satan is bound yet sin still exists.

ultimately the concept that God knows everything yet we have free will is murky and our mortal mind cant grasp it. unless youve been allowed to view things how God views them it is rather hard to grasp even then our mortal brains cant quite comprehend it and this is one of those things we really just had to take on faith and leave it at that. sort of how there was always at some point a God. there was never a point where a God did not exist. this concept is impossible for the human brain to figure out really that there always had to be a God to create things and life since God is the creator of all things it stands to reason a God that is also eternal like matter is eternal(as science and DC tell us) there must of always been a God.

in other words if we take our number system that goes on infinitely that is the closest we can get to applying this concept to God. or the number of pi which goes on infinitely as well.

ultimately God knows all. but gives us a choice in the matter. to choose the good from the evil and to obtain a body are the primary functions of earth.

[Dove]

Hello, Kayne;
Thanks much for the response. I agree a great deal with how hard it is for us to understand the things of an infinite God when we ourselves are finite and are in a realm of "time."

Referring to Ether 12:27~ "And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto ment weakness that they may be humble; and my grace if sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them."

This, and other scriptures in the Book of Mormon that teach us that all good comes from God and His son, the Saviour, leads me to believe that the only time we truly have the agency to choose righteousness is when we are seeking God/His Son and to do their will through prayer, obedience, abstaining from sin and asking for the atonement to be applied to our life personally. It seems to me that we lose our ability to choose righteousness/happiness to the extent we knowingly deny our Creator and the atonement.

Your thoughts?

[kayne]

Originally Posted by Dove

Hello, Kayne;
Thanks much for the response. I agree a great deal with how hard it is for us to understand the things of an infinite God when we ourselves are finite and are in a realm of "time."

Referring to Ether 12:27~ "And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto ment weakness that they may be humble; and my grace if sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them."

This, and other scriptures in the Book of Mormon that teach us that all good comes from God and His son, the Saviour, leads me to believe that the only time we truly have the agency to choose righteousness is when we are seeking God/His Son and to do their will through prayer, obedience, abstaining from sin and asking for the atonement to be applied to our life personally. It seems to me that we lose our ability to choose righteousness/happiness to the extent we knowingly deny our Creator and the atonement.

Your thoughts?

i agree ive seen some of my weakness made into strengths. also look at moses he spoke poorly yet is one of the most famous prophets ever.

to the point of denying our creator and our agency. i look at it like this....you steal. you goto jail. freedom is taken. you dont steal you can continue to gain more freedom

[Blackmarch]

Well a few cents from me...

Free will is the ability to choose between options thare available to us.
Free agency is freedom to choose who or what will represent, define, and or guide us.
Freedom is the number of options that we have to choose from.

Why does god allow individuals to come to earth, if he knows that some will never return to him?
Because it is one, a right and priveledge they get for having kept the first estate to whatever degree (in laymans terms it means as spirits they sided with God and christ against the devil.).. And two because god is just- God cant pick and choose and remain just, nor can he punish nor award for deeds not done yet...
Now why would we want to choose to come here knowing that wed be taking a big risk? Because what we get, and the potential that we get for coming to this world is worth it.

[Dove]

Hi, BlackMarch;
I love the hope and optimism of your last line...That it's worth it to come and take this big risk...

I was taught that Brigham Young said in effect, that if we knew the glory and joy of even the lowest kingdom, we would kill ourselves just to be there. Let alone the glory and joy of the celestial kingdom...
Makes me feel better about the hard times in life

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by Blackmarch

Well a few cents from me...

Free will is the ability to choose between options thare available to us.
Free agency is freedom to choose who or what will represent, define, and or guide us.
Freedom is the number of options that we have to choose from.

Why does god allow individuals to come to earth, if he knows that some will never return to him?
Because it is one, a right and priveledge they get for having kept the first estate to whatever degree (in laymans terms it means as spirits they sided with God and christ against the devil.).. And two because god is just- God cant pick and choose and remain just, nor can he punish nor award for deeds not done yet...
Now why would we want to choose to come here knowing that wed be taking a big risk? Because what we get, and the potential that we get for coming to this world is worth it.

I disagree but I am not sure you understand how I am interpreting your remarks correctly. Free will for me is not just a choice but an expression of will. For example should an enemy capture you and your loved ones and say - you chose who we are to kill – your parents, your wife or your children. Now they may offer you a choice but if they control the options – that cannot be a choice of free will. I have come to the conclusion that we do not have free will as a fallen creature.

If one drills down to the core of what is necessary to make a choice of will – there are more factors than just choice of options. However, I think we are close concerning understanding of Agency.

Sorry it is late. I may not have time tomorrow – but I hope to continue discussions of this thread.

The Traveler