Free will vs. all-knowing determinism...

[changed]

so, I'm having a little discussion with my brother-in-law here...
(I know, I should not argue with the in-laws like this, I do like a good discussion tho...)


and want to hear your viewpoints. What do you think - is the future set in stone or not? Cause/effect deterministic universe? Or uncaused/unpredictable/random events with no accountability – through which the future can be unknown/open? or multiple effects that stem from the same cause… two roads diverged in a yellow wood….


a few viewpoints:
a.) free will requires an unknown future, so God cannot know everything.

b.) free will does not require an indeterminate future, but is rather a statement about who causes the determinism. (deterministic future, but determined by the individual rather than an outer cause, so free will can exist concurrently with determinism.)

in short - are free will and determinism mutually exclusive? I don't think they are, but I could be wrong...

your opinions?

[norah63]

On this one I tend to go with B. Father sees our hearts better than we do.
Am looking forward to others views.
Isn't that the Armenian vs Calvin discussion?

[changed]

Originally Posted by norah63

On this one I tend to go with B. Father sees our hearts better than we do.
Am looking forward to others views.
Isn't that the Armenian vs Calvin discussion?

I agree that God knows us better than we know ourselves - I think He knows what we will do, and knows what the future is, that we are the ones learning who we are (not God).

Perhaps I agree with the Calvinists in thinking that our future is set in stone, but I disagree with them in that I think we set our own future in stone - (rather than God being the one behind all the strings).

[Tyler90AZ]

I believe B is the correct option, an unknown future is not required for free will.

When you go to college you know you will get a degree at the end, however, just knowing means nothing. In order to receive the full benefits of the degree you must take all the classes. Another example is that if we live worthily we can return to God someday. Although we have that knowledge, we need the experience to receive the full benefit.

[Blackmarch]

Originally Posted by changed

so, I'm having a little discussion with my brother-in-law here...
(I know, I should not argue with the in-laws like this, I do like a good discussion tho...)


and want to hear your viewpoints. What do you think - is the future set in stone or not? Cause/effect deterministic universe? Or uncaused/unpredictable/random events with no accountability – through which the future can be unknown/open? or multiple effects that stem from the same cause… two roads diverged in a yellow wood….


a few viewpoints:
a.) free will requires an unknown future, so God cannot know everything.

b.) free will does not require an indeterminate future, but is rather a statement about who causes the determinism. (deterministic future, but determined by the individual rather than an outer cause, so free will can exist concurrently with determinism.)

in short - are free will and determinism mutually exclusive? I don't think they are, but I could be wrong...

your opinions?

I will play a game of tictactoe with you, I will go first. The outcome will be either i win or a draw.

I have predetermined the outcome of the game, have i taken your free will away?

[mrmarklin]

All things are before God. He knows the future because He has seen it. But that doesn't mean you can't do what you want. It's just that He knows what all human interactions are leading to, it's already before Him.

[changed]

Originally Posted by Tyler90AZ

I believe B is the correct option, an unknown future is not required for free will.

When you go to college you know you will get a degree at the end, however, just knowing means nothing. In order to receive the full benefits of the degree you must take all the classes. Another example is that if we live worthily we can return to God someday. Although we have that knowledge, we need the experience to receive the full benefit.

If we knew our own future, like God does, do you think it would make us lazy? - if you knew you were getting the degree, would you slack on your HW, and say "I don't ned to worry about any of it, because I already know I'll make it through" ... or if you knew you were not going to get the degree - what would that do to a mindset?

I guess it's good we don't know our own future, we'd overly stress about the bad stuff if we knew it was coming, or take the good stuff for granted and not appreciate it as much perhaps... Seems like there are some things that can only be learned by those who are partially ignorant.

Originally Posted by Blackmarch

I will play a game of tictactoe with you, I will go first. The outcome will be either i win or a draw.

I have predetermined the outcome of the game, have i taken your free will away?

No, you have not. (although the third option is that I refuse to play, in which case it is neither win or draw )

Originally Posted by mrmarklin

All things are before God. He knows the future because He has seen it. But that doesn't mean you can't do what you want. It's just that He knows what all human interactions are leading to, it's already before Him.

I agree - it is comforting to know that God is all-knowing, that everything is in His hands. It is comforting to not guess about the knowledge of God... but does this mean we are trapped by our own personality? the future set in stone, we can't change who we are, we'll do what we'll do, and that's just what it is? I think the atonement does allow us to escape our own limitations though... so all we really need, is a personality that is willing to try, and God will do the rest. (Please let me be one of the ones who is willing to try!)

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by changed

...


No, you have not. (although the third option is that I refuse to play, in which case it is neither win or draw )



...

This thought is very interesting to me. However, it does appear to me that despite all our efforts the simple fact is that we are not in control - not just in general but in our own lives. At least we are not in control of anything in mortality. We like to think we are but have control as a mortal is an illusion.

The course has been determined - this we know from scripture. There is a lot of argumentation that we make choices but those choices do not change the outcome. So if we cannot change the outcome - why do we think we have choices? The answer is because G-d tells us that we have the power of agency - we are what we determine. So how can we determine our destiny or even have input if our destiny is already determined?

The answer is so obvious - I am surprised that no one else seems to get it. The reason that G-d knows the outcome is because it is determined. But because we have agency - it was not G-d that predetermined the outcome - We did!!!

It is our agency and our choices that determine our destiny. In essence we are living our own predetermined choices and outcome. Thus for billions of years before we were born we carefully planned and put together our mortal experience. We planned each trial - we determined our quest - we selected the drama of our life.

Thus it is necessary that we come into this life not knowing and with a veil of forgetfulness. Thus, because we do not know our drama we follow and bring that which was planned to be (by us) from the beginning. (See D&C 93:31)

Now there is a dimension that I have not covered. It is the great paradox between good and evil. Because a good tree cannot bring about evil fruit how could we experience evil? That is the fall. And by falling we become subject to evil and we die. But the plan also includes resurrection. Not only will we be resurrected from mortality but all our sins will be redeemed. And all this was pre-determined. But from modern revelation we know that we - through our agency - already made a choice -- which determined our next estate.

The Traveler

[a-train]

Because determinism cannot be falsified, it is futile to ask if it be true. No matter what you do, one could say it was fate. Foolishness.

[changed]

Originally Posted by Traveler

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]...The course has been determined ...

yes, it is pre-determined, but it is predetermined by us. Isn't that what free-will is? the ability to determine our actions? and isn't that determinism? thinking about it, I don't see how free will could exist in anything but a deterministic universe.