How do you avoid absolute power?

[sabastious]

I have been studying Mormonism and I am currently having regular missionary visits. My largest concern is that of your prophet and his 12 apostles. To me a detailed description of how they are elected is paramount for me to consider Mormonism a serious religion. Prophets such as Elijah could part the Jordan river which would be very good evidence of a special supernatural connection. As we all know charlatan's are not only allowed the exist, if they are good enough they flourish for long stretches of time leaving behind widespread disappointment, but full bank accounts and security for them. Even people who did not start out with a greedy intent could have been infiltrated by the greedy as religion makes a LOT of money.

My main question is how does the LDS church avoid top leadership corruption? (as in the prophet and 12 apostles) This seems to be a problem that has never been solved in an organization even the American government. I believe firmly that absolute power corrupts absolutely and I don't believe any flesh to be an exception to that rule.

What a heavy responsibility it would be to head an organization that considers itself the only authority on earth to baptize in the name of the One True God. Such a position would be very susceptible to corruption, how do you get around that whereas so many have not?

Regards,

-Sabastious

[skippy740]

You ask a very good question. However, I must ask one back to be sure we understand:

What is your definition of corruption for this question?
- Are we talking about one person trying to elevate their greed above the good of the church?
- Are we talking about one trying to hide grevious sins?
- Are we talking about prophets/apostles being imperfect?
- All of the above?

[sabastious]

What is your definition of corruption for this question?

The Jehovah's Witnesses leadership was recently prosecuted and fined millions of dollars for covering up child abuse within their ranks. Google "Candace Conti" if your interested in reading about it. The Watchtower issues secret books to their congregational leadership of which only "elders" are allowed to read which contain policies of secrecy regarding the abuse of children. Secrecy IS corruption and that's what happened to the JW religion. Their Governing Body put too much credence in their methods and looked to safeguard their reputation as a church with Christian values. Their lust for reputation has brought them to their knees.

Another good example of top level corruption would be the recent "Fast and Furious" scandal within the American government. Frankly I don't understand how these people can lose their ethics after being checked by the American voter, but it happens all the time.

What is your definition of corruption for this question?
- Are we talking about one person trying to elevate their greed above the good of the church?
- Are we talking about one trying to hide grevious sins?
- Are we talking about prophets/apostles being imperfect?
- All of the above?

Yes, I would say that all of those would be factored into the question and more. Even spiritual corruption I would add in. What if your prophet starts creating false doctrine and no one knows it? It seems like someone who leads a huge church like LDS could do anything they wanted as long as they were smart. How do you avoid this inevitable human flaw?

Regards,

-Sabastious

[skippy740]

Interesting points.

Let's start off with an obvious point: No one is immune to temptation - including the top leadership of the LDS church.

The last general authority of the church to be excommunicated was George P. Lee - who disagreed about church policy with the president of the church at that time. Later it was revealed that he sexually molested children. However, that was brought to light AFTER he was excommunicated.


As far as 'greed' may be concerned... not only do I think these men in authority have enough for their needs (either by church support funds or personal wealth), but the church is one of the largest non-profit organizations in the world. There are a LOT of accountants to certify the church's accounting at any time. I won't say that 'embezzlement' is impossible... but it would be highly unlikely.

Prophets and apostles are NOT perfect. They can make mistakes and errors... and the Lord will allow it. (If you want a good example, click on the link in my signature and watch "Blacks and the LDS Priesthood" dvd segment.)

D&C 1:24-28

24 Behold, I am God and have spoken it; these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding.

25 And inasmuch as they erred it might be made known;

26 And inasmuch as they sought wisdom they might be instructed;

27 And inasmuch as they sinned they might be chastened, that they might repent;

28 And inasmuch as they were humble they might be made strong, and blessed from on high, and receive knowledge from time to time.

Most importantly, is for the members of the church (or anyone for that matter) to rely upon and listen to the promptings of the holy spirit. The spirit that can guide, teach and edify us to the truths of the gospel and how we should live.

I know there's a lot of emphasis on prophets and apostles. Remember, they are spiritual advisors. Just because you join the church doesn't mean that they 'take over your life'. They are there for instruction and guidance... but you still make your own decisions for your life.

I hope that helps some!

[sabastious]

The last general authority of the church to be excommunicated was George P. Lee - who disagreed about church policy with the president of the church at that time. Later it was revealed that he sexually molested children. However, that was brought to light AFTER he was excommunicated.

What if he had been molesting children before he was called? Can the prophet choose a wrong apostle? I understand that Judas was both an apostle and a betrayer, but he wasn't a greedy betrayer when Jesus picked him or else Jesus' selection methodology should be considered highly flawed.

My father emotionally and physically abused me growing up, but the JW leadership still appointed him as a shepard of the flock. Application for elder leadership is sent to the society in Brooklyn for the the Governing Body's approval. It is said that Holy Spirit is used to make sure they are worthy of such a position. I knew, however, that my father was abusing me and was still appointed. I totally understand the concept of imperfect leaders, however appointing a leader who is not in the least bit qualified and calling it "by holy spirit" is appalling to me.

How do you know your faith is secure about men whom you don't know much about? How do you know the doctrine they come up with is in accordance with the Spirit's desires? How do you know Joseph Smith was wrong and needed to be changed? What if blacks ARE an accursed race and it was wrongly changed otherwise? How do you know what doctrine is solid when it changes over time? What methodology is used to determine why certain truths are kept from us until certain points in humanity?

Also why only a single prophet? If I remember correctly the Old Testament has certain junctures where many prophets are called at once. Paul and Barnabas were considered equals I believe in authority and rank in relation to the congregations. I know the kind of spiritual and physical carnage that can come from unqualified leadership being touted as more special than they are actually are.

Regards,

-Sabastious

[skippy740]

You ask a lot of questions, so let's see if I can help.

First, your last question - why only one Prophet? I used a capital 'P' on purpose because in our faith, the Prophet and the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints are one and the same. The rest of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve are also considered prophets, seers and revelators. (Notice the small 'p' of prophets in relation to the rest of the governing body of the church.)

Some things are still between the sinner and the Lord. The holy spirit is not the same as a 'spiritual verifyable background check' on everyone.

As far as doctrine, the church in today's day is much more mature than when it first was established. During the early years was the time that the church was most susceptible to 'widely accepted views' vs the doctrines of Christ. Today, much of the talks and messages are given about what manner of men we ought to be, versus proclaiming new doctrines.

My testimony is based on the fact that the Lord is the same yesterday, today and forever. Man's views and interpretations may change, but the Lord's intention and will has never changed.

[sabastious]

As far as doctrine, the church in today's day is much more mature than when it first was established. During the early years was the time that the church was most susceptible to 'widely accepted views' vs the doctrines of Christ. Today, much of the talks and messages are given about what manner of men we ought to be, versus proclaiming new doctrines.

In 1979 Mormonism changed it's views on the black culture by removing the "accursed" tag. That was only 34 years ago and such an alteration is a monumental change in doctrine. How are you so sure that another monumental change will not be announced at any moment? What if your prophet is seduced by the Serpent? Would that not mean that the entire Mormon church would be under the devils command until the prophet is exposed and removed?

You speak about teaching what men we ought to be, which is very good, but what about doctrine such as the Last Days in Matthew 24? Doctrine is very important, I feel like you are minimizing it's importance. Refining doctrine and simplifying is paramount for the preservation of it for further generations to come. The religion I used to be in is centered around the Last Days and says that they started in 1914. Your doctrine and covenants document interprets Revelation 14's "144,000" as High Priests that "emerge" in the Last Days to help preach the "Everlasting Gospel." Have you identified any of these "High Priests" and why did Smith only mention the title priest and not king when the term king is coupled with priests in said verse? Why would these priests be necessary if not to overcome the folly of organized religion?

Regards,

-Sabastious

[Anddenex]

Originally Posted by sabastious

I have been studying Mormonism and I am currently having regular missionary visits. My largest concern is that of your prophet and his 12 apostles....

My main question is how does the LDS church avoid top leadership corruption?

If the true Church of Jesus Christ, or the true gospel required perfection (without corruption), then there would be no true church on this earth.

Even in the Lord's time, the Apostles warned the people of wolves in sheep clothing within the Church.

Solomon, who was once considered the wisest of all kings at the time, even fell himself to different forms of corruption.

You mention absolute power is absolutely corruptible with all flesh, and I wouldr agree, if our prophets had absolute power, which they do not. There is two people in scripture by which we know who had absolute power given them by the Father. This was Jesus Christ, and Nephi in the Book of Mormon, who was told by God he would have power to do all things, because God knew that he wouldn't abuse the power.

Within, our faith, we have a promise, that the Prophet will never lead us astray. There was a talk given regarding Brigham Young who spoke one thing in the morning, and then at night said something to the affect, "I spoke this morning, now the Lord will speak through me" (This is paraphrased quite a bit).

When it comes to Bishops, Stake Presidents, and even some General Authorities they are men doing their best to follow the Spirit, but are not always successful, and sometimes the wrong men or woman is called, and they say called by the "Holy Spirit."

What you have to recognize is that the presence of corruption, at any level, is not what makes the gospel of Jesus Christ true or not true. It is simply true.

If corruption was the reason why something is true verses not true, then the gospel would have failed at the time of Cain.

These are great questions, however, if you want to know for yourself if the Church of Jesus Christ is the gospel of Jesus Christ restored, then you must: read, ponder, and then pray and ask God, thus learning for yourself. I would also add fasting.

When God confirms the truth, then you can seek for other answers.

Skippy, has provided you with some excellent answers, however, both Skippy and I have a witness, by the Holy Spirit, that this is God's true church.

After this witness comes, then we seek answers for other things. I say this, because it doesn't matter really what answer we provide if the church is false, although it isn't, but you get my point.

If the Church is true, and you gain this testimony for yourself, then as Skippy, myself, and others we exercise faith the promises of the Lord, especially with regard to our Prophet, and how we have a promise from God that he will never allow the Prophet to be corrupt, or God himself in His own way will remove the Prophet from his mantle.

This is evident with the story of Balam and the donkey. Ballam (forgetting if this is the right spelling), who was told to bless Israel, however because he had a lust for power and greed, he was going to follow the King instead, and as he was going to curse Israel the Lord had prepared an Angel to smite him. He then changed his course of action and blessed Israel.

This is also evident with the story of Jonah, who was a prophet, and commanded of God, when he rebelled out of fear, or whatever he was feeling, the Lord used a big fish to humble him enough to do as He commanded Jonah to do.

As a Latter-day Saint, I have no worries regarding the corruption of our prophets and apostles, because I know, as the Lord did with Ballam and Jonah, that He will correct their course, if need be.

Great questions! May the Lord bless you in your search, and I am sorry to hear about your abuse as a child, and may, as Alma once said, your soul be comforted in Christ.

Best Regards,

Andrew

[applepansy]

The title of your opening post is "How do you avoid absolute power?"

The answer is to recognize the hand of God in all things and never take credit for something you can't possibly do without God. Which is just about everything. Its called humility.

[anatess]

Difference between LDS church and a lot of other churches... We don't have paid clergy. To become a prophet (big or small p), you usually have served a long time in lower callings. It's a tough job being, say, bishop of a ward. You don't get paid for it so you still need a job to support your family in addition to 20 or more hours a week of serving the church. It surely isn't something to aspire to if your intent is to be corrupt money wise...

Say you're like the power hungry freak wherein you just like to be the president of something as a pride thing, not a money thing - so you get power over a group of people... Not easy to do in the LDS church as any presidency - bishop or any other presidency is called, not aspired. You don't like, gain points under your belt to get a promotion in the ranks. The person at a higher authority prayerfully choses who to call to fill in lower open positions. So, you can be bishop one day and toilet cleaner tomorrow.

And lastly, every single calling in the church is sustained by unanimous vote by the entire church. If one person raises their hand in opposition to a calling, it gets reviewed and discussed with the opposing vote. So yes, the Prophet of the Church and all the General Authorities have to be sustained by unanimous vote by all the members of the church every year.