Can there be free will while God knows all things?

[kstevens67]

An interesting discussion in class the other day:

The non-believers stand-point:

1. The Christian God is omnipotent and omniscient.
2. If God created us knowing everything
3. He knows who will eventually end up in Heaven and who will end up in Hell
4. If the above are true, then we only have the Illusion of free will since we cannot see the future.
5. The God would then not be moral for punishing us for something He knows we will do upon creation.

The believer’s stand-point was the following:
1. Knowing and forcing are two different things
2. God created us to have free will as one of the reasons we are here is learn to love.
3. Love cannot be forced.

In the end the discussion was the non-believers would state that both an Omnipotent and Omniscient God cannot coexist with free will. This is a logical contradiction since this God knows what we will do which predetermines are actions and we cannot have free will. The believers would state that this is not a logical contradiction at all as knowing does not equal forcing.

I left when both sides just started claiming the other illogical and unreasonable without furthering the discussion. What is the LDS viewpoint on the above?
In my view, which is limited I’m sure, our Father in Heaven must know the future as He shows the future in revelations and possibly other areas of the scriptures. What does it mean when we say God is omnipotent and omniscient?

Some definitions:
Omnipotent - Having very great or unlimited authority or power.
Omniscient - Having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.

Going by these definitions does this mean He knows if I am going to sin 10 years from now and there is nothing I can do about it? It would seem so as if He doesn’t than His knowledge would be limited which goes against the definition of omniscient. On the other hand (correct me of I am wrong on this) the LDS views our Father in Heaven as progressing like we are. This may lead to the idea that the definitions of omnipotent and omniscient man is using are different from what God would define them as. I still hold to the idea that God may know the future, but we are the ones determining the future using our free will.

Another thought would be that our Father in Heaven has perfect knowledge in all things regarding the best way to live, but does not have knowledge completely regarding our every action we will make in the future. All throughout the scriptures, Heavenly Father is allowing people to change and repent. He has the perfect knowledge of what’s best for everyone. This would possibly require that the definition man is using may not be entirely correct.

Just a couple thoughts I decided to throw out there. Does the LDS hold a certain view or is this kind of left open to the individual?

[Seminarysnoozer]

There must be some value to God in "bringing to pass" the immortality and eternal life of man. I think the important aspect of that description of the work and glory of God is very important. The part, though, that I think many overlook is the definition of "to bring to pass". I think that phrase needs to be pondered to understand the discussion you are trying to bring out.

In other words, there is some value in actually completing the process. There is less value then in simply knowing that something will happen. The full value of the thing is not there until it is actually brought to pass. We (LDS) know this is true because we believe that all that are here in this life already expressed their belief and understanding in the plan. In other words, all of us have already stated our belief in Christ as part of the first estate. We believe now we are putting the strength of that belief to the test, to see if we will actually carry out what we said we will do. So, to carry out the plan (to bring to pass) is the test we face and have to pass as part of the second estate.

If one only believes we are judged by what we understand or believe, then I can see how this issue you bring up can be a problem. LDS do not see as a problem, in part, because we believe the glory of God is to actualize the things He knows can be done. There is a real benefit in carrying out the plan and knowing that it has been done as opposed to just seeing the potential for it.

[Misshalfway]

Well, I'm a parent and I can know that if my kid doesn't fill the gas tank, he'll be stranded on the side of the road. But that doesn't mean I have to go fill the tank for him. I can let him learn. I can warn him. Not sure God's position is any different.

[ZionsRodeVos]

The way I understand the gospel and our Heavenly Father is that just because He knows what choices we will make does not mean we don't have the freedom to choose what we want. He just happens to know us well enough to know what we are going to do. It's similar to parents who know their children well enough to know what they will choose when there is a choice their child must make.

One simple example would be that if a child likes yellow and a parent offers the child a choice between many different colored shirts and included in the selection is a yellow shirt then the parent can be very sure the child will choose yellow. Too me, this does not take away from the child's free will to choose what the child wants even though the parent knows what the choice will be.

[Anddenex]

Originally Posted by kstevens67

Just a couple thoughts I decided to throw out there. Does the LDS hold a certain view or is this kind of left open to the individual?

The non-believer side is an argument from ignorance. A person knowing all, seeing all, doesn't dictate what a person chooses to do, the choice is simply known -- moral agency is not inhibited.

A parent, sticks two toys in front of a child. The parent already knows which toy the child will grab, assuming the parent only allows the child to pick one toy. Does the knowledge of the parent influence or inhibit the choice or agency of the child to choose his/her favorite toy?

The answer is no. Knowledge does not interfere with agency, it simply provides knowledge, while the person maintains their agency.

God's foreknowledge is in accordance with agency, it does not determine the agency of another person.

[Misshalfway]

I sure like your posts, Anddenex. I understand things better when I read them.

[Anddenex]

Originally Posted by Misshalfway

I sure like your posts, Anddenex. I understand things better when I read them.

You are very kind Misshalfway, thank you.

[LittleWyvern]

I believe that God's knowledge of all things transcends just one sequence of events. If someone were to ask God where I would be in 10 years, I think the proper answer would be entire set of possibilities (or even a superposition of possibilities), some more probable than others. God, being all-knowing, sees the results of all of our possible choices, but there is not one answer to "where I will be in 10 years" because I haven't decided what choices I am going to make. Limiting God to only knowing one possible timeline of events comes too close to Calvinism for my taste.

[Vort]

Originally Posted by kstevens67

An interesting discussion in class the other day:

The non-believers stand-point:

1. The Christian God is omnipotent and omniscient.
2. If God created us knowing everything
3. He knows who will eventually end up in Heaven and who will end up in Hell
4. If the above are true, then we only have the Illusion of free will since we cannot see the future.
5. The God would then not be moral for punishing us for something He knows we will do upon creation.

The believer’s stand-point was the following:
1. Knowing and forcing are two different things
2. God created us to have free will as one of the reasons we are here is learn to love.
3. Love cannot be forced.

In the end the discussion was the non-believers would state that both an Omnipotent and Omniscient God cannot coexist with free will. This is a logical contradiction since this God knows what we will do which predetermines are actions and we cannot have free will. The believers would state that this is not a logical contradiction at all as knowing does not equal forcing.

I left when both sides just started claiming the other illogical and unreasonable without furthering the discussion. What is the LDS viewpoint on the above?
In my view, which is limited I’m sure, our Father in Heaven must know the future as He shows the future in revelations and possibly other areas of the scriptures. What does it mean when we say God is omnipotent and omniscient?

Some definitions:
Omnipotent - Having very great or unlimited authority or power.
Omniscient - Having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.

Going by these definitions does this mean He knows if I am going to sin 10 years from now and there is nothing I can do about it? It would seem so as if He doesn’t than His knowledge would be limited which goes against the definition of omniscient. On the other hand (correct me of I am wrong on this) the LDS views our Father in Heaven as progressing like we are. This may lead to the idea that the definitions of omnipotent and omniscient man is using are different from what God would define them as. I still hold to the idea that God may know the future, but we are the ones determining the future using our free will.

Another thought would be that our Father in Heaven has perfect knowledge in all things regarding the best way to live, but does not have knowledge completely regarding our every action we will make in the future. All throughout the scriptures, Heavenly Father is allowing people to change and repent. He has the perfect knowledge of what’s best for everyone. This would possibly require that the definition man is using may not be entirely correct.

Just a couple thoughts I decided to throw out there. Does the LDS hold a certain view or is this kind of left open to the individual?

The weak point in the logic is #2, which implies that an omniscient God created us. This is false, at least in the sense stated here. God did not "create" us in the ultimate sense; rather, we are eternally self-existent beings, "co-equal" with God himself. (Joseph Smith was recorded to have used the term "co-equal", though B. H. Roberts and Joseph F. Smith argue that his meaning was clearly "co-eternal". Whatever. In the sense used, I don't see a dime's worth of difference.)

The point being, we are uncreated, just as God himself is uncreated. God did not "create" our decision-making capacity, so is not responsible for it.

That's my current view on the issue, for what it's worth.

[Just_A_Guy]

Originally Posted by kstevens67

This may lead to the idea that the definitions of omnipotent and omniscient man is using are different from what God would define them as. I still hold to the idea that God may know the future, but we are the ones determining the future using our free will.

Another thought would be that our Father in Heaven has perfect knowledge in all things regarding the best way to live, but does not have knowledge completely regarding our every action we will make in the future. All throughout the scriptures, Heavenly Father is allowing people to change and repent. He has the perfect knowledge of what’s best for everyone. This would possibly require that the definition man is using may not be entirely correct.

I don't think there's an official Church line on how God's foreknowledge preserves the moral agency of man; but it's worth noting that Joseph Smith described God as seeing all things past, present, and future as "one eternal now". For God, it's not what I will do or what I have done; it's all--from the day I was born to the day I die, and even beyond--what I'm doing.

The fact that He sees my future doesn't mean that He's making it happen, any more than the fact that I see my daughter stealing a cookie means my perception of the act is somehow forcing her to perpetrate it. God's foreknowledge is merely Him perceiving the reality that we have created/are creating/will create.