The Great And Abominable Church

[Jenda]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@May 31 2004, 11:31 PM
Jenda and Starsky,

Shame on you.**

Jason, I'm sorry that that is my belief and that it hurts you. I have studied a lot of things about the Catholic church and find many things that went on in God's name (and still does) through the church is wrong.

That does not mean that the people in the church are wrong. There are many wonderful, God-fearing people in the Catholic church. That does not change the nature of the church, though.

And there are many people in my church (which I consider the true church) who are not wonderful or God-fearing.

There is a little scripture that states that at the end of time, when darkness shall sweep the land and the vengeance of the Lord comes, it will start in His own house. So, it is not like my church stands in a better spot than your church.

D&C 105:9-11b RLDS (112:23-26 LDS)
9a Verily, verily I say unto you, Darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people, and all flesh has become corrupt before my face.
9b Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth--a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation--and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.
10a And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord.
10b First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

[Jason]

Jenda and Starsky,

Okay, rather than jump your cases about this, why don't we make this an academic exercise, okay?

1. Which Catholic Church do you believe is the G&A?
A. Roman
B. Orthodox
C. Old
D. Autocephalous
E. Nationalistic
F. "c"atholic

2. Then tell me why you believe that that specific Church is the Great and Abominable Church. (Specific Scriptural passages and Theological Scholar references only please.)

Thanks.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Jun 1 2004, 11:04 AM
Jenda and Starsky,

Okay, rather than jump your cases about this, why don't we make this an academic exercise, okay?*

1.* Which Catholic Church do you believe is the G&A?
* * A. Roman
* * B. Orthodox
* * C. Old
* * D. Autocephalous
* * E. Nationalistic
* * F. "c"atholic

2.* Then tell me why you believe that that specific Church is the Great and Abominable Church.* (Specific Scriptural passages and Theological Scholar references only please.)

Thanks.

So in other words, you want me to prove, via Catholic documents, that it is the G&A church, and you are eliminating historical documents? That is an interesting approach, since a lot of the theological stance is based on the historical actions and philosophies of the church. The basis of the Crucades, the basis of how the cross came into vogue as a symbol of Christianity, the basis of some of the priesthood orders, etc., all contribute to this understanding.

Sorry, count me out. Unless you can prove through LDS scripture and all the prophets teachings that the LDS and/or the RLDS is not the true church.

Just out of curiosity, why are you concerned about this? You don't believe in the restored scriptures, and the G&A church is only mentioned in the BoM. So why be concerned?

[Jason]

"So in other words, you want me to prove, via Catholic documents, that it is the G&A church, and you are eliminating historical documents? That is an interesting approach, since a lot of the theological stance is based on the historical actions and philosophies of the church."

No. Go right ahead. Im just saying be scholarly.

"The basis of the Crucades, the basis of how the cross came into vogue as a symbol of Christianity, the basis of some of the priesthood orders, etc., all contribute to this understanding."

Fine. Let's chat.

"Sorry, count me out. Unless you can prove through LDS scripture and all the prophets teachings that the LDS and/or the RLDS is not the true church."

What if I could prove from the Book of Mormon that the LDS/RLDS church is the great and abominable church of the devil? Would that peak your interest?

"Just out of curiosity, why are you concerned about this? You don't believe in the restored scriptures, and the G&A church is only mentioned in the BoM. So why be concerned?"

Protestants long before Smith wrote the BOM believed this. (one Martin Luther comes to mind.) Revelations 17 has been used, not the BoM.


Here's a little article for you and Starsky:

http://www.mormonfortress.com/ga.html

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Jun 1 2004, 01:32 PM
"So in other words, you want me to prove, via Catholic documents, that it is the G&A church, and you are eliminating historical documents? That is an interesting approach, since a lot of the theological stance is based on the historical actions and philosophies of the church."

No. Go right ahead. Im just saying be scholarly.

"The basis of the Crucades, the basis of how the cross came into vogue as a symbol of Christianity, the basis of some of the priesthood orders, etc., all contribute to this understanding."

Fine. Let's chat.

"Sorry, count me out. Unless you can prove through LDS scripture and all the prophets teachings that the LDS and/or the RLDS is not the true church."

What if I could prove from the Book of Mormon that the LDS/RLDS church is the great and abominable church of the devil? Would that peak your interest?

"Just out of curiosity, why are you concerned about this? You don't believe in the restored scriptures, and the G&A church is only mentioned in the BoM. So why be concerned?"

Protestants long before Smith wrote the BOM believed this. (one Martin Luther comes to mind.) Revelations 17 has been used, not the BoM.


Here's a little article for you and Starsky:

http://www.mormonfortress.com/ga.html

Sorry Jason, but I don't believe the Catholic church is the Great and Abominable....

I stated above that I believed it during my mission in France....that was over ....well lets say...it has been decades....

I have since come to believe what I stated above in another post...and that is the the G&A is 'people' of a dark and worldly heart...

[Jason]

Starsky,

Thanks for the clarification. To me, this sort of anti-catholicism should have died out long ago. Im honestly a bit surprised that Jenda has this view. I consider both of you my friends. Hopefully, I'll be able to show her that Catholicism is not abominable, nor pagan, nor corrupted christianity, nor is poor old John Paul the anti-christ, etc..

[Jenda]

Jason, before I begin, if I choose to take this up with you, I wanted to add to my statement.

I did state that I felt that there are many good and God-fearing people in the Catholic Church. I want to take the opportunity to discuss what I feel about churches.

Many of my friends are in the habit of saying that a church is nothing more than the people who make up the church. I tend to disagree with that statement. I feel that a church is an institution like any other (a business, a society, a college, etc.), and it's primary concern is to protect itself at all costs. But a church, being an institution of faith must also concern itself with the people who comprise it. Or should. So, I believe that there are two different "churches" within a church. There is the level of the people where the work of the church is performed. The work of witnessing and programs and ministry. This level is warm and inviting. Then there is the level where the business is performed. This level of the church is cold and impersonal. This "church" is the machinery, where everything (programs, etc.) is minutely examined to see which direction it will take the church. This machinery was set in motion long ago. For my church, it was set in motion about 40 years ago when many very influential people decided that they wanted to change the direction the church was moving. But my church is young (comparatively). The machinery of the Catholic church was set in motion hundreds and hundreds of years ago. It has a goal, and there is nothing that will stop the church from reaching that goal.

You wanted to help me understand that John Paul, II, is not the anti-Christ. I don't believe he is. I believe he is a God-fearing man, who is doing the best he can under the conditions he is required to work under. But I believe his is but a puppet in the grand scheme of things (as would be anyone who occupied that position.) I feel the same about my church in this manner. Grant McMurray (the president of my church) is but a puppet acting out the role of president in a complex scheme that was set in motion years ago. I believe that if either man (your man or mine) tried to change things significantly, they would be unable to. They only have so much power, the machinery of the church prevents much else from moving it from it's destined course.

That is how I feel about your church and mine.

If I get the time and the desire, I will try to tackle your challenge. If not, I will try to post a few links just so you can see what I have studied that has led me to my conclusion.

[Traveler]

Originally posted by Jenda@May 31 2004, 07:04 PM

Boy do we interpret these scriptures differently.

A couple of questions (mostly related to your point #3.)

How do you know that the G&A church has been around a long time, and in fact was the dominant power of intellectual thinking at the time of Jesus?

How can you read those scriptures and not see the correlation between the G&A church, and an actual church of today? It is so very obvious to me.

Sorry I am not around to answer more and I will be gone for a while - kind of a busy time. The G & A C was responsible for removing "plain and precious" truths from the scriptures. Most of this was accomplished by 100 AD and there really was not a Catholic Church at that time. Recent finds in Caesarea indicate that by 75 AD scriptures were being systematically altered. We know through the Dead Sea Scriptures that the pure parts of the scriptures were still in tact (Old Testament) up to about 73 - 74 AD.

There should be some overlap as scriptures were hidden up to be preserved. As a matter of fact, I believe there are several relevant scriptures found among the DSS that give understanding. Those that have followed the attempts to keep certain DSS from the public realize that all 50 of them play at least a small part in scriptures being removed from the public.

I am sure that the G & A C has been around a long time. 2000 years ago it united leaders from several religious organizations to alter scriptures and is still effective today in keeping many confused and from the truth when the scriptures are rediscovered or restored.

If one studies the methods and worship of Baal much more becomes clear. Perhaps the next chance I get I would post more about Baal and the interesting method of burning to clean away this particular effect before society can operate “cleanly”.

The Traveler

[Jason]

"Sorry I am not around to answer more and I will be gone for a while - kind of a busy time. The G & A C was responsible for removing "plain and precious" truths from the scriptures."

Name one?

"Most of this was accomplished by 100 AD and there really was not a Catholic Church at that time."

Yes there was a Catholic Church. It was founded by this dude from Nazareth....

"Recent finds in Caesarea indicate that by 75 AD scriptures were being systematically altered."

Source please?

"We know through the Dead Sea Scriptures that the pure parts of the scriptures were still in tact (Old Testament) up to about 73 - 74 AD."

Don't you mean Dead Sea Scrolls?

"There should be some overlap as scriptures were hidden up to be preserved. As a matter of fact, I believe there are several relevant scriptures found among the DSS that give understanding. Those that have followed the attempts to keep certain DSS from the public realize that all 50 of them play at least a small part in scriptures being removed from the public."

Care to share an example?

"I am sure that the G & A C has been around a long time. 2000 years ago it united leaders from several religious organizations to alter scriptures and is still effective today in keeping many confused and from the truth when the scriptures are rediscovered or restored."

Let me see: Illumaniti, Trilateral Commission, Freemasonry....name your conspiracy.

"If one studies the methods and worship of Baal much more becomes clear. Perhaps the next chance I get I would post more about Baal and the interesting method of burning to clean away this particular effect before society can operate “cleanly”."

Oh, please do.

Interesting stuff about historical Christianity

This site has some information....you might like to read through.