A Messed Up Doctrine?

[Cal]

[quote]Originally posted by broadway@Jun 9 2004, 08:47 PM

I do have two children. My first loyalty goes to Heavenly Father. This can be difficult at times. My second loyalty is to my husband...again, this can be difficult. Then to my children.


This is the way things ought to be, according to scriptures.

I can understand your point of view and ,as a parent, can appreciate it. However, you loose them the opportunity to progress further if you take their earthly life away before the age of accountability. How fair would it be to your child if he was going to get married, endure to the end, etc and make it to the very top, but you decided that he wasn't good enough to actually accomplish all that.

How dare any person take these kinds of things into their own hands? If you were Heavenly Father, what would you think of a person who did such a thing?

[quote]

First, you wouldn't be taking ANYTHING away from the child. Isn't our goal to reach the celestial kingdom?

Second, why would God be angry with a totally selfless act? I thought God approved of people sacrificing all for the sake of another. Even if God were angry, that is the point!! You are willing to endure the rath of God to save your children. Quite a noble sacrifice don't you think? Do you dispute that the ODDS are that some of one's children will not make the celestial otherwise?

[Cal]

Originally posted by Ruthie-chan@Jun 10 2004, 04:38 AM
Ya know, that thought entered into my mind once upon a time.

But ya know what? It's not fair to your children to kill them and take away their free agency.
This also robs them of having an eternal family with you. YOU won't make it to the top.
Therefore, you are effectively out of their eternal lives.
When you die, you take whatever knowledge you have with you. That's all.
If you kill a child, they have very little knowledge in comparison to many others.
How fair is that?
They would lose you in the eternities and to top it all off, there will be things they will never be able to learn because they were robbed of this life.

I often wonder if this is the kind of justification people use when getting abortions.
Along with, it's cruel to let them live in such a terrible world.

Whatever. *shakes head*

ps, I am a mother.

[quote]

There are lots of things people never learn ANYWAY. Besides, if you weigh the consequences of not making the celestial kingdom with the consequences of NOT learning a few things, which would you chose? You are still doing the kid a favor, NO? Think about it, quaranteed celestial kingdom, what can top that?


(I do say some of this for discussion sake---but, the logic compels me to explore the rationality of it all)

[Cal]

Originally posted by Starsky+Jun 10 2004, 08:55 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Starsky @ Jun 10 2004, 08:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Jun 9 2004, 08:27 PM
And the conundrums continue.....................we mormons believe that children that die before the age of accountablity automatically go to heaven. So does that mean that if I kill my young children that I am doing them the favor of not letting them risk the possiblity that they might not go to heaven if they live out a normal life? IF it is REALLY true, how could God punish someone for sacrificing himself selflessly by sending his kids to the celestial kingdom forever? Greater love hath no man......... and in this case he is giving not only his earthly life, but his eternal life, WHAT A SACRIFICE.......should it go unrewarded?

Brother only you could come up with such a screwed view of mormon doctrine that is meant to bring peace....and you make it bring murder....gadfreeeze.... [/b][/quote]
[quote]

Hey, Starsky, Mormon scriptures is FULL of homicide , in case you hadn't noticed. Of course, it's all sanctioned by God, it has a nobel purpose. (Nephi kills laban, blood atonement etc) I didn't write the doctrines of the LDS church, and I don't even believe some of them. It wasn't I that claimed that children who die automatically inherit the celestial. It wasn't I who said "greater love hath no man......". It is I that is drawing some logical conclusions from YOUR scriptures. Care to add something rational?

[Ray]

Originally posted by Cal@ Jun 10 2004, 03:51 PM

Actually, the fact of the matter is that few, if any of us would. Why? Because, deep down, we all actually have some doubt as to the truth of much of this stuff.

Actually, I don’t think it is so much a matter of “that” as it is that we can see how some people can even twist the truth to support an unrighteous act.

Yes, children who die before the age of accountability will automatically go to the celestial kingdom.
No, that doesn’t mean that we should go around killing all children before they get to be that old.
Why?
Because the act of killing children will get yourself into a whole heap of trouble
And
Because children should be allowed to experience as much of their lives as they can.

There are still some unasked and unanswered questions about all this, but we should at least understand what we should do and not do in regards to children.
Kill them… NO
Allow them to choose how to live their own lives: YES

Got it?

[Cal]

Originally posted by Tr2@Jun 10 2004, 08:02 AM
This is a very interesting topic. A little off the wall, but interesting because of the nature of the theology.

If you were to kill your children at a young age, I do believe they would go to heaven. Without a doubt. I think you would be screwed because Jesus spoke very harshly against those who would do wrong to children.

If you knew your kid wouldn't make it to heaven. Well now we're talking about YOU. You kill your kid, and he/she goes to heaven, but what about you. Did you harm your kids? yep. Did you do what was best for them? Nope. We are supposed to love our children. In a way we have forced them to go to heaven, whether they would have wanted to or not. God has never forced a person into heaven, which is why He gives man a choice in the matter. I once heard somebody say that God loves us so much that He will never force His will onto them.

That would not be the best thing for your children because you have robbed them of living on earth, as they were meant to. and you have robbed them of their choice in the matter. You would have forced them to do what you wanted without considering whether or not they even want to go to heaven. If my son ever tells me "Dad, I don't want to go to heaven", that will be the hardest thing I could ever imagine. But I would hope i could respect that decision, because God respected mine for so many years.

It is not our job to make sure other people go to heaven. It is our job to make sure they know how to get there.

[quote]

Wait a minute, you say God never forced anyone to go to heaven? Not according to mormon scripture; kids who die AUTOMATICALLY go to heaven. Sound pretty cut and dry.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Tr2@Jun 10 2004, 08:02 AM
This is a very interesting topic. A little off the wall, but interesting because of the nature of the theology.

If you were to kill your children at a young age, I do believe they would go to heaven. Without a doubt. I think you would be screwed because Jesus spoke very harshly against those who would do wrong to children.

If you knew your kid wouldn't make it to heaven. Well now we're talking about YOU. You kill your kid, and he/she goes to heaven, but what about you. Did you harm your kids? yep. Did you do what was best for them? Nope. We are supposed to love our children. In a way we have forced them to go to heaven, whether they would have wanted to or not. God has never forced a person into heaven, which is why He gives man a choice in the matter. I once heard somebody say that God loves us so much that He will never force His will onto them.

That would not be the best thing for your children because you have robbed them of living on earth, as they were meant to. and you have robbed them of their choice in the matter. You would have forced them to do what you wanted without considering whether or not they even want to go to heaven. If my son ever tells me "Dad, I don't want to go to heaven", that will be the hardest thing I could ever imagine. But I would hope i could respect that decision, because God respected mine for so many years.

It is not our job to make sure other people go to heaven. It is our job to make sure they know how to get there.

[quote]

Your last line is though provoking. Good comment. However, it IS interesting that mormon doctrine not only provides a way to show them how to get there, it also provides a way to quarantee it. (I hope everyone realizes that this is a purely academic exercise--I no more buy the consequeces of this doctrine than you) But it is hard to escape the consequence that one COULD guarantee his children's place in the celestial kingdom.

[M.P.S.]

Originally posted by Unorthodox@Jun 10 2004, 05:09 PM
Or would they be sheltered from evil spirits in Paradise?

Yes they would be sheltered. Unfortunatly in the time I have now, I can find the reference that tells this. It may be in D&C 138 as it talk of the missionary system in the Spirit World but I don't know for sure. I do know that once you leave this mortal life Satan and his angels have no power over you.