Intelligence - No beginning? Earth - Most wicked?

[HoosierGuy]

I just finished Abraham tonight! I finished Moses a few weeks ago. Those two books are very powerful, especially Moses. I found Abraham a little more difficult to follow. I am reading a study guide to these books too.

A few questions:

1. There is a difference between our Intelligence, Spirit, and Soul?
Our Intelligence has always existed, correct? That just blows me away.

So, our Intelligence has no beginning. When we were born to our Spirit Parents we became Spirits. Then, when our Spirits were put into our Body/Temples they became Souls. Correct?

2. This Earth is the most wicked Earth out of all the Earths?
Moses 7:36 -

36 Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the acreations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great bwickedness as among thy brethren.


There have been many Earths made and Celestialized. But this Earth that we are on is the most wicked?

The author of my study guide says that many times he is asked by his students what bad things we did in the pre-life that caused us to be sent to the most wicked Earth. He tells them we should be honored that we were sent to this most wicked Earth, the Earth where Jesus was given his mortal body and carried out the Atonement and blessed all the inhabitants of Fathers worlds - past, present, and future. He says, we should be asking what we did right to deserve such an honor!

Did we do something special in the pre-life, something more special than our other Brothers and Sisters that go sent to to other less wicked Earths? Did we do something honorable to get sent to this most wicked Earth?

[tomk]

Correct. We have always existed in some form.

I have my own ideas on how our spirit bodies were created. Essentially I categorize my existence as follows:

1) unorganized intelligence (raw intellligence)
2) organized intelligence (formed into a spirit body)
3) soul (physical body + spirit body)
4) temporary disembodiment (death)
5) resurrection (reunion of body and soul, never to be seperated again, and glorified with that portion of that glory which I received and obeyed willingly while mortal)


I've heard that before. That this earth was the most wicked, where the "showdown" between good and evil would take place. The only earth upon which the Atonement could be wrought - where souls wicked enough to crucify their God could be found. To balance things (provide opposition) it would make sense that the most wicked and also the most valiant souls could be found here).

[tomk]

Also:

Have you ever read this talk?

A Personal Search for the Meaning of the Atonement Cronk


Talks about intelligences and the role they play in Justice / Mercy / Atonement / Miracles / Creation.

Very good read for those so inclined, as you seem to be.

[tubaloth]

1. There is a difference between our Intelligence, Spirit, and Soul?
Our Intelligence has always existed, correct? That just blows me away.

So, our Intelligence has no beginning. When we were born to our Spirit Parents we became Spirits. Then, when our Spirits were put into our Body/Temples they became Souls. Correct?

Correct.
We just can’t completely comprehend how somethings (I like to call it “stuff”) always existed. There are just elements that have always been there.

2. This Earth is the most wicked Earth out of all the Earths?

Yes.

There have been many Earths made and Celestialized. But this Earth that we are on is the most wicked?

Yes and “we” get this title for one reason.

(2 Nephi 10:3)
Wherefore, as I said unto you, it must needs be expedient that Christ—for in the last night the angel spake unto me that this should be his name—should come among the Jews, among those who are the more wicked part of the world; and they shall crucify him—for thus it behooveth our God, and there is none other nation on earth that would crucify their God.

Nobody else would ever kill the son of God! Everybody else would have realized who he was! This is kind of a double edge I guess. Christ needed to die to atone for our sins. (the sins of the most wicked earth) only one place Christ could come for that to happen.

Did we do something special in the pre-life, something more special than our other Brothers and Sisters that go sent to to other less wicked Earths? Did we do something honorable to get sent to this most wicked Earth?

Most likely yes! What this was we don’t know. We do know that a lot of “blessings” that come to people in this life had an effect on what they did in the life before. We learn from Alma 13 about qualifying for getting the priesthood based off of righteousness and good works. We also know that God divided the “nations” (into the 12 tribes) based of Pre-mortal life. Also WHEN we would be born. I assume which earth we were assigned to was based off of something else that happen in Pre-mortal life.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

Originally Posted by HoosierGuy

I just finished Abraham tonight! I finished Moses a few weeks ago. Those two books are very powerful, especially Moses. I found Abraham a little more difficult to follow. I am reading a study guide to these books too.

A few questions:

1. There is a difference between our Intelligence, Spirit, and Soul?
Our Intelligence has always existed, correct? That just blows me away.

So, our Intelligence has no beginning. When we were born to our Spirit Parents we became Spirits. Then, when our Spirits were put into our Body/Temples they became Souls. Correct?

I'll agree mostly with TomK's response here. Pretty succinct and to the point.

2. This Earth is the most wicked Earth out of all the Earths?
Moses 7:36 -

36 Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the acreations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great bwickedness as among thy brethren.

There have been many Earths made and Celestialized. But this Earth that we are on is the most wicked?

The author of my study guide says that many times he is asked by his students what bad things we did in the pre-life that caused us to be sent to the most wicked Earth. He tells them we should be honored that we were sent to this most wicked Earth, the Earth where Jesus was given his mortal body and carried out the Atonement and blessed all the inhabitants of Fathers worlds - past, present, and future. He says, we should be asking what we did right to deserve such an honor!

Did we do something special in the pre-life, something more special than our other Brothers and Sisters that go sent to to other less wicked Earths? Did we do something honorable to get sent to this most wicked Earth?

We discussed this in chat, you said you'd ask your bishop about it...

I'm still very adamant that this was a gross misinterpretation of Moses 7:36. If you follow the footnotes on "Wickedness" it points you to 3 Nephi 9:9 which I think is the more accurate way to interpret Moses 7:36: "...because of their sins and their wickedness, which was above all the wickedness of the whole earth..."

To borrow from Einstein - all things are relative. In the Gospel all things are relative to this earth. While it IS doctrine that there have been and will be many other earths, whether we can compare this earth to others is NOT doctrine, but theory and speculation. Now I love to theorize and speculate as much as (and more than) the next man, but it's important to keep those theories seperate from doctrine unless or until a prophet or scripture unequivicably verifies it as true or false.

We know the atonement was/is infinite, but how or if that applies to "Worlds without number" we can only guess. Does the atonement only apply to this world and its inhabitants? Does it apply to every world in this universe? What about other universes? When(if) I am exalted and create my own worlds, will Christ's atonement on this one apply to those worlds I create or will there be other atonements for them? These are questions unanswered by scripture and, as far as I'm aware, unclarified by modern prophets. I personally tend to lean towards an infinite atonement that applies only to this world with other atonements for other worlds. Believing that we live on the one earth where the atonement for all earths was made borders on a geocentric universe, in my opinion.

I'd encourage you to investigate and theorize and consider all the options before you, but even when those theories make absolute sense and may even seem to be scripturally supported, don't confuse them with true doctrine. If you can't be content to let your idea remain as just an "interesting idea", I suggest you search lds.org extensively, study the scriptures, pray, and consult your local priesthood leadership. And keep in mind that if it's not pertinent to your eternal salvation (which any "speculation" about the gospel is not) then it's not worth worrying over.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

Originally Posted by tubaloth

Correct.
We just can’t completely comprehend how somethings (I like to call it “stuff”) always existed. There are just elements that have always been there.

Yes.

Yes and “we” get this title for one reason.

Nobody else would ever kill the son of God! Everybody else would have realized who he was! This is kind of a double edge I guess. Christ needed to die to atone for our sins. (the sins of the most wicked earth) only one place Christ could come for that to happen.


Most likely yes! What this was we don’t know. We do know that a lot of “blessings” that come to people in this life had an effect on what they did in the life before. We learn from Alma 13 about qualifying for getting the priesthood based off of righteousness and good works. We also know that God divided the “nations” (into the 12 tribes) based of Pre-mortal life. Also WHEN we would be born. I assume which earth we were assigned to was based off of something else that happen in Pre-mortal life.

Not to reiterate what I already said, but to point out the flaw in your argument - let me quote 2 Nephi 10:3 again, with one minor emphasis:

Wherefore, as I said unto you, it must needs be expedient that Christ—for in the last night the angel spake unto me that this should be his name—should come among the Jews, among those who are the more wicked part of the world; and they shall crucify him—for thus it behooveth our God, and there is none other nation on earth that would crucify their God.

It's important to read what the scriptures say, not what we want them to say. I've done it myself where I get an idea stuck in my head and suddenly start reading scriptures that support it only to find out I've omitted or misread a word somewhere and the scripture means the OPPOSITE of what I thought.

[Hemidakota]

Originally Posted by HoosierGuy

I just finished Abraham tonight! I finished Moses a few weeks ago. Those two books are very powerful, especially Moses. I found Abraham a little more difficult to follow. I am reading a study guide to these books too.

A few questions:

1. There is a difference between our Intelligence, Spirit, and Soul?
Our Intelligence has always existed, correct? That just blows me away.

So, our Intelligence has no beginning. When we were born to our Spirit Parents we became Spirits. Then, when our Spirits were put into our Body/Temples they became Souls. Correct?

2. This Earth is the most wicked Earth out of all the Earths?
Moses 7:36 -

36 Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the acreations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great bwickedness as among thy brethren.


There have been many Earths made and Celestialized. But this Earth that we are on is the most wicked?

3] The author of my study guide says that many times he is asked by his students what bad things we did in the pre-life that caused us to be sent to the most wicked Earth. He tells them we should be honored that we were sent to this most wicked Earth, the Earth where Jesus was given his mortal body and carried out the Atonement and blessed all the inhabitants of Fathers worlds - past, present, and future. He says, we should be asking what we did right to deserve such an honor!

Did we do something special in the pre-life, something more special than our other Brothers and Sisters that go sent to to other less wicked Earths? Did we do something honorable to get sent to this most wicked Earth?

1] Intelligence is eternal as the elements are. Intelligence was not created by GOD. Will continue on as find the one who is considered the first man. Spirits were not born but formed as you go back and read the Book of Moses. There are two stories being told: a] Type for our creation & b] literal for first man. Remember, GOD is a story teller and you can see where the Savior did the same in His ministry.

Why the spirits are formed and not born?
Immortal Father + Immortal Mother = Immortal children

What does a soul consist of for this salvation?
SOUL = Intelligence + Spirit Body + Mortal Shell

Is there a repeat of Abraham Chapter 3 after inheriting the Celestial kingdom for the glory above that one? Something most have to wait to see, when we are given that white stone to see above that glory what awaits for them.

Another thing to remember, this universe when viewed from the outside holds the same pattern as to an object in our lives. This universe is a collection of those glorified intelligences that will collaborate together as one [Zion] for the greater the cause. Same principle that gives GOD his power - us collaborating [honor HIM] with HIM.

2] Correct. Last earth only made it to the Animal portion of the creation and failed. This is why we still have those remaining fossils of what was. From other fragmented earths, the Godhead covered over the earth and started again. So, our age is unknown due to the orbital plane of the earth and location it resided prior to this solar system before being relocated here. You can see that the earth was being reformed prior to the Sun or the Moon in this region [Read Genesis chapter 1] For us, we only know that for our mortality historical records when Adam fell in the Garden [give or take], is only only more than 6000 years, where the materials of the earth are in the billions. You can see that not all earth become Celestialize.

3] The thing to remember, not all GOD children were part of the Great and Noble ones council as told by Abraham. many are called but only a few are chosen...something to remember. Everyone has the opportunity but at this point, only few shall find it and endure this mortality for the greater reward. It is an honor be given a chance on this world among other earths that are part of GOD's progeny.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

Originally Posted by Hemidakota

2] Correct. Last earth only made it to the Animal portion of the creation and failed. This is why we still have those remaining fossils of what was. From other fragmented earths, the Godhead covered over the earth and started again. So, our age is unknown due to the orbital plane of the earth and location it resided prior to this solar system before being relocated here. You can see that the earth was being reformed prior to the Sun or the Moon in this region [Read Genesis chapter 1] For us, we only know that for our mortality historical records when Adam fell in the Garden [give or take], is only only more than 6000 years, where the materials of the earth are in the billions. You can see that not all earth become Celestialize.

Where the bleep do you get this idea? Cite your sources. I want to know where you get the idea that fossils come from a "failed earth". Just the thought of that idea makes me sick to my stomach...

LDS.org page on the Atonement LINK
"Jesus Christ redeems all people from the effects of the Fall. All people who have ever lived on the earth and who ever will live on the earth will be resurrected and brought back into the presence of God to be judged (see 2 Nephi 2:5–10; Helaman 14:15–17). "

We have scriptures in 2 Nephi and in Helaman which expound on the atonement, and then we are given the appropriate interpretation of those scriptures - that the atonement applies to THIS EARTH. Follow the link above and there is an entire section of the page dedicated to scripture references that support this.

I don't want to discourage good gospel discussion, but please do NOT claim that anything is doctrine or correct or true unless you have clear and concise scriptural or prophetic sources. Only what is written in scripture, spoken over the pulpit by prophets, or printed in official church instruction materials is true and correct doctrine. Any study guides or research or scriptural aids that are not written by a prophet and which are not printed officially by the church are subject to the errors and mistakes of men.

[Traveler]

Originally Posted by HoosierGuy

A few questions:

1. There is a difference between our Intelligence, Spirit, and Soul?
Our Intelligence has always existed, correct? That just blows me away.

So, our Intelligence has no beginning. When we were born to our Spirit Parents we became Spirits. Then, when our Spirits were put into our Body/Temples they became Souls. Correct?

It would seem that with this question there is some misunderstanding. The difference between our Intelligence and our spirits is not at all what is projected in some post. That which is spirit is eternal by nature and is not created or made. (See D&C 93) - Note that Saten takes away intellignece through disobedience (verse 29 and verse 39). This is the means by which spirit become "subject to" and freedom of man is lost.

The Traveler

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

Originally Posted by Traveler

It would seem that with this question there is some misunderstanding. The difference between our Intelligence and our spirits is not at all what is projected in some post. That which is spirit is eternal by nature and is not created or made. (See D&C 93) - Note that Saten takes away intellignece through disobedience (verse 29 and verse 39). This is the means by which spirit become "subject to" and freedom of man is lost.

The Traveler

My good friend Vanhin brings some beautiful clarification to this topic on this thread. To summarize there are, according to the Guide to the Scriptures there are 3 primary definitions of "intelligence" which are:

1. The light of truth, (or the light of Christ)
2. A spirit child of Heavenly Father
3. Spirit matter (which our spirit bodies and all things spiritual is made up of)
Guide to the Scriptures: Intelligence, Intelligences

In our present context, Hoosier would be referring to the third definition - that the spirit matter which our spirits are made of has always existed. How that spirit matter (3) is organized into our spirits (2) is ambiguous in scripture, but the most common inference I've read from church leaders is that it is a process similar to birth - hence why we are called spirit children and God is our Heavenly Father.