First Vision: Did Joseph hallucinate?

[bytor2112]

The Trinity.....how do you make sense of the sensless? Who was the Savior praying tin Gethsemenee? Why was he praying to himself so often....... never made sense to me. Josephs prayer opened Heaven once again and a flood of truthwashed away alot of confusion.

[rameumptom]

Everyone, I hope we will stop attacking other religions and faiths. Do I disagree with many of the teachings of other religions, including the CoC? Of course I do. And I am glad to vigorously debate those issues. But some of the discussion here is getting down to plain insults.
I've known Dale on the Internet for quite a few years, including at the MADB/FAIR boards. He's very fair to the Brighamites in his discussions, and we should show him just as much consideration back, even if we disagree with some of their beliefs.
Heck, even Dale seems to disagree with some of the CoC beliefs, such as he believes the Father and Son are separate beings. Let's not denigrate the man nor the religion, though we can definitely discuss issues where we separate.

The reality is, each of us is in an apostate state. Insofar as we are separated from the presence of God, we are in a fallen state. Even in the LDS Church, people believe in many wrong beliefs and ideas that could be considered apostate. Much of it is due to ignorance. Much of it is due to not having all the revealed truth necessary to know for certain.

Even prophets and apostles have had mistaken beliefs in the past, such as believing that the Native Americans' primary DNA ancestor was Lehi. That doesn't make the gospel false. It does make that teaching untrue, and requiring revision through new light and truth.

I agree that the CoC has steadily been leaving their Josephite roots. It is a big concern to me that they no longer stress the Book of Mormon, which Joseph taught was the keystone of the religion. It concerns me that other big changes have occurred that seem more political than inspired.

But you know what? Others could say the same thing about the Manifesto on Plural Marriage and on the Priesthood Revelation. Were those divine or political decisions? Or both?

I will say that unless the CoC changes course, they will eventually reduce Joseph Smith to a charismatic, Billy Graham-like preacher, rather than a prophet. The early prophecies will become less and less important, as they embrace traditional Christianity. And as they do, more and more of the Josephites will abandon the CoC and embrace their roots, whether by joining the LDS Church or beginning a new Mormon sect. Either way, in 20 years, the CoC probably will not be a Restorationist religion any longer.

[nannysherri]

I am in complete agreement with Rameumptom, the gospel of the Saviour is of love. People have a right to their choices and no I don't agree with other teachings. Insults though are not in teachings of the Spirt and it will leave in acts like these.

[VisionOfLehi]

Let's cool it a bit.


What I want to know is why it's wrong to call it a vision?

We call it the First Vision. We label it a vision, what's wrong with treating it as such?

I think all agree, either way, that it was absolutely Divine.

[Misshalfway]

My biggest doctrinal concern from the CoC snippit is what it leaves out! Like the true nature of God and the separateness of the Father and the Son and the fight he had with Satan. Not to mention the specific nature of the answers he received from the almighty.

It feels like a big watering down effort.

[VisionOfLehi]

When I was taught the First Vision by the missionaries there was no mention of the fight with Satan, and it wasn't the Vision account, but the lesson, that made it clear they were 2 separate beings.

I didn't learn about him being attacked by Satan before the prayer until an institute lessons months after my baptism that was actually about Moses (the same thing happened to him.)


I don't like that it leaves out the fact that the Father and the Son actually appeared. "healing presence of God" and "forgiving mercy of Christ" are not the same thing as them actually appearing.

But it's still not inaccurate.

[MrNirom]

Here is my opinion.. for what it is worth.

Since The RLDS Church or Community of Christ rejected plural marriage, the progression of the Church and many other things (including the first vision).. they are small in number and now virtually indistinguishable from Protestants.

[rameumptom]

Originally Posted by VisionOfLehi

Let's cool it a bit.


What I want to know is why it's wrong to call it a vision?

We call it the First Vision. We label it a vision, what's wrong with treating it as such?

I think all agree, either way, that it was absolutely Divine.

It isn't wrong to call it a vision. I think the big problem comes in the CoC statement from it being extremely brief, to the point of not giving out any information. One does not get from it that Joseph Smith saw anyone in particular, vision or not. We see that he experienced something, but the sublime portions of the vision are left out.

Then again, the 1838 version Joseph gave us also leaves some things out. There is evidence from other versions that other angels were witnessed, for example. And the attack from Satan is more descriptive in some of the earlier versions.

The LDS Church doesn't dwell so much on Satan's attack, because the focus is on the fact that God appeared to Joseph. However, we do not hide that information, as we hand out Joseph Smith Testimony pamphlets and have it in our Pearl of Great Price for anyone to read.

Interestingly, the early Church did not emphasize the First Vision until after 1838, perhaps a decade or so later. Their focus was the testimony of the Book of Mormon and the angel (Moroni) coming to present the plates and the new revelations. Sad that any Restorationist Church would lose its focus on these two great and amazing experiences.

[VisionOfLehi]

I think if you're going to take a bone with something, it's not the First Vision account, but this statement (From their site):

God

The one eternal, living God is triune: one God in three persons. The God who meets us in the testimony of Israel is the same God who meets us in Jesus Christ, and who indwells creation as the Holy Spirit. God is the Eternal Creator, the source of love, life, and truth. God actively loves and cares for each person. All things that exist owe their being to God who alone is worthy of our worship.

Jesus Christ

Jesus Christ is "God with us," the Son of God, and the living expression of God in the flesh. Jesus Christ lived, was crucified, died, and rose again. The nature, love, and purpose of God are most clearly seen in Jesus Christ, our Savior

Which, to me, doesn't seem that strange or unusual. We have to remember, though our roots are the same, the LDS and CoC Churches AREN'T the same. We've had different history, and have accepted different doctrine.

To hang your head in shame, or accuse them of waywardness, is just uncouth.

The Light is in all religions, this one not excluded. I think we should emphasize that they are our brothers and sisters, and that they're more likely to understand our beliefs than many other churches.

Build bridges, don't stomp on the cracks in old ones.

[MrNirom]

Originally Posted by rameumptom

Then again, the 1838 version Joseph gave us also leaves some things out. There is evidence from other versions that other angels were witnessed, for example. And the attack from Satan is more descriptive in some of the earlier versions.

You know.. I got married the other day. When I was talking to my sister about it.. I knew she liked details.. So I told her all the things I could remember.. How my wifes eyes sparkled etc.

When I spoke with my Brother.. telling him about the ceremony.. I did not include all the same details. I knew that my Brother wasn't interested in that.

Now if I wrote down these two accounts.. people would wonder if I am talking about the same ceremony.

Joseph did the same.. he adjusted the story.. or the details.. depending on who he was talking to.

Make sense? He learned over time.. that people did not respond well to the "all the churches are an abomination" and so he did not offer that detail... or toned it down a bit. Maybe he noticed that people got turned off.. when he mentioned the evil spirit that overcame him... and so.. he decided not to mention that part when telling the story.

Each time someone tells a story.. it is really never the same when you are speaking to different crowds.