First Vision: Did Joseph hallucinate?

[VisionOfLehi]

That doesn't support the Trinity. You can't quote one scripture without relevant scriptures as well, when trying to discuss a whole topic.

And that refers to the Godhead, not a single Trinitarian God. Or do you presume to interpret LDS scripture contrary to the teachings of the LDS prophets?


I see a common theme when people try to "prove" or "counter" LDS beliefs and concepts: They live out some of the relevant scriptures that don't support their side.

[Maureen]

Originally Posted by VisionOfLehi

That doesn't support the Trinity. You can't quote one scripture without relevant scriptures as well, when trying to discuss a whole topic.

If you're looking for context, you can go to all three scripture verses and read the whole chapter of each. The verses still show trinity characteristics.

And that refers to the Godhead, not a single Trinitarian God. Or do you presume to interpret LDS scripture contrary to the teachings of the LDS prophets?

In a few circles Godhead and Trinity can be synonymous.

I see a common theme when people try to "prove" or "counter" LDS beliefs and concepts: They live out some of the relevant scriptures that don't support their side.

And you would prefer to leave out the scripture that does support the Trinity doctrine? Is that it?

M.

[VisionOfLehi]

No, I wouldn't leave it out, because it doesn't support Trinity, it supports the Godhead. I would take those scriptures and add to them the ones that clarify the separateness of the Godhead.

We have the fullness of the Gospel, but it's contained in all the standard works, when you take in the complete message, not bits and pieces.

[Maureen]

Originally Posted by VisionOfLehi

No, I wouldn't leave it out, because it doesn't support Trinity, it supports the Godhead. I would take those scriptures and add to them the ones that clarify the separateness of the Godhead.

We have the fullness of the Gospel, but it's contained in all the standard works, when you take in the complete message, not bits and pieces.

Here are some scriptures I found related to the corporeal body of God:

The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us. (D&C 130:22)

In the image of his own body, male and female, created he them, and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created and became living souls in the land upon the footstool of God. (Moses 6:9)

All the other scriptures were mainly inferring that man was created in the image of God. I realize that LDS interpret this as the Father having a body of flesh and bones, but even OT and NT scriptures have these proclamations and mainstream Christianity and myself can see the Trinity in this. God is the Father, Son and HS and man is body, mind and spirit.

I also found another scripture:

Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh. (Ether 3:16)

This is Christ speaking to the brother of Jared. If this body was visible but still spiritual, is it possible that what JS thought was corporeal, when he says he saw the Father and Son, was really spiritual for both the Father and the Son?

M.

[VisionOfLehi]

Originally Posted by Maureen

his is Christ speaking to the brother of Jared. If this body was visible but still spiritual, is it possible that what JS thought was corporeal, when he says he saw the Father and Son, was really spiritual for both the Father and the Son?

M.

No. Jared saw Christ BEFORE Christ came to Earth to receive his mortal body.

After Christ died, He had His glorified, physical body. This is when He appeared to Joseph.

Now, if you look at the first D&C you posted, that explains that.

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.

1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor. 2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.

Now... We see that they have 2 separate bodies, and you've clarified for us that they are now flesh and bone, save the HG. We see further that they are NOT the same person, of a Trinity, because if the wording that would include Christ in the Trinity would have to include Satan in some Holy Quartet. He was the same in the beginning, he speaks to God in the beginning. In fact, he's referred to in much the same manner, save he's not the Beloved or Chosen one.

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.


22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:


23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

If we all may be one, JUST as the Father and the Son are, does that make us all different aspects of the same person? And since we may be one in Them, JUST as They are one in each Other, than that makes us all part of the "Trinity," too.

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Note, it says one God AND Father. Not just One God. It's placing one "aspect" of the Trinity clearly above the other. Now, if there were a Trinity, would it not be "GOD" above them all? The composite of the Triune? How can a part be greater than the whole?

D&C 76 also helps clarify the nature of the Godhead.

Jesus was the firstborn of the spirit children of our Heavenly Father, the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh, and the first to rise from the dead in the resurrection

And for the rest, we have modern revelation:

LDS.org - Ensign

Preach My Gospel

[Maureen]

Originally Posted by VisionOfLehi

...We see further that they are NOT the same person, of a Trinity, because if the wording that would include Christ in the Trinity would have to include Satan in some Holy Quartet. He was the same in the beginning, he speaks to God in the beginning. In fact, he's referred to in much the same manner, save he's not the Beloved or Chosen one.

It is apparent that you are not understanding the wording of the Trinity, because the Trinity agrees that each person of the Godhead (Trinity) are in fact distinct from each other. The Father is a person (or as LDS say personage), the Son a separate person, and the HS also a separate person. But they are all God collectively or individually. They have the same, unique, one of a kind nature, which is their divinity. They have always been God before time existed because they created time and space. Satan could not possibly be included in this tri-unity because he is an angel, a created being. Satan is no where equal to God.

If we all may be one, JUST as the Father and the Son are, does that make us all different aspects of the same person?

This again is a good example of not understanding what the Trinity really is.

Note, it says one God AND Father. Not just One God. It's placing one "aspect" of the Trinity clearly above the other. Now, if there were a Trinity, would it not be "GOD" above them all? The composite of the Triune? How can a part be greater than the whole?

God and the Father are synonymous. God is the Father and the Father is God, there is no separation of the two. You cannot divide or separate God into parts.

M.

[Dale]

At most i am open to is a pre-incarnate form being created for Jesus uncreated personality. Not buying into he spirit birth idea i believe Jesus created the spirits. I do not accept the heavenly mother idea as anything but a religious speculation.

Joseph Smith does not have appeared to have taught spirits were born. His esoteric speculation that conflicts with scripture was that spirits were uncreated. He taught physical children were born via heavenly parents. But as God the Father had no such physical children in the resurrection that only leaves him now spiritually adopting children now. Unless DNA is taken from such beings to give future worlds parental diversity i see no purpose in eternal marriage, or eternal polygamy. Van Hale LDS radio talk show host has a paper on it at Mormon Miscellaneous.

With John 17:21,22 i see LDS apologists sometimes a victim of not reading out side their apologetics. In no way can we, or Jesus the man go beyond the oneness of purpose suggested by the verse. But in Jesus the verses may be read as saying the exclusive everwhere present God dwelt in Jesus and that was what made that one in purpose. The same God via the spirit can dwell in us enabling us to be one with that exclusive omnmi-present God as they are one.

In brief the answer is the same God can dwell in many different persons. Thus enabling many persons including Jesus the man to be one in purpose with God. But John 17:21,22 is not about God being more than one God, or that Jesus the spirit part was a 2nd God. Why can't two true truths exist as a parodox?

[rameumptom]

Once again, the Trinity is not something to comprehend. It is a mystery. The Trinity are three persons in one God. How that works, no one has ever been able to explain completely to me. They are the same being, but three persons. They are not three aspects of one being, as that is modalism.

LDS believe in a social Trinity - where the 3 persons are physically separate, but the same in all other aspects in the Godhead. Some, but still few, traditional Christian scholars are beginning to accept this concept of the Trinity.

But the traditional view of the Trinity does become an issue in trying to explain the ancient view of Jews and Christians towards the Trinity. They believed in an anthropomorphic God. That is very clear from the early writings in the Bible and external books. The Divine Council is an early Hebrew/Semitic belief that comes into play here. El Elyon has 70 sons, each of them a divine being. Each is given a kingdom to rule over as god. Yahweh/Jehovah is given Israel as his kingdom, being the favorite kingdom and favorite son of El. Over time, due to political intrigue and sloppiness, many of the gods fall, until Yahweh rules all the kingdoms. Sons of Yahweh are the mortals that he has created. With Dale, we LDS agree that Christ/Yahweh created mortal man in conjunction with Elohim, but the divine spirits are El Elyon's creation.

We see this divine council in Isaiah 6 and Abraham 3. We see Satan and other divine sons of El go to challenge Yahweh for his preeminence in Job 1. Representative of the divine council, Moses and the 70 elders of Israel go to the mountain top and eat, with Yahweh present.

Margaret Barker, Methodist preacher and OT scholar, stated that early Christians saw Jesus as the fulfillment of Yahweh, the Angel of the Lord's Presence. In his resurrection, he showed the way for perfected and divine beings.

After the Nicene Council in 325 AD, the Trinity slowly gained strength. However, there were still issues on the Trinity. Some insisted that Jesus only was fully divine, and not mortal. This view was finally ended over a century later, in the Council at Chalcedon, where he was proclaimed fully divine and fully mortal, the duality of Christ. But while this was proclaimed, it adds yet another layer of mystery on the Trinity. How can God, who is of a holy and different substance than man, be resurrected with a physical body of imperfect matter AND still be a pure Spirit?

The LDS view that God and Jesus are two physically separate beings of Spirit embodied in physical bodies, and that spirit is of matter, just like we are, denotes that no duality or mystery need occur to understand God. There is a natural transition for the sons of El and of Yahweh, from spirit being to mortal being to resurrected being. Of course, this brings up the issue of creatio ex nihilo, but that's another thread....