First Vision: Did Joseph hallucinate?

[User-Removed]

Abc

[Hemidakota]

Community of Christ's version is not correct…anyone with the same desire of witnessing what the young Joseph can obtain the same in mortality for themselves. It is quite accurate when a person would first see a conduit of light prior before seeing a member of the Godhead or ministering of Spirits. This approach appeared in his bedroom when Moroni did appear and even among the BOM Nephites at the Temple of Bountiful. Now, this light when seen is quite hard to describe in mere English since there is no such term to call it. Even being wrapped in this great light, ones own feeling will feel a great warmth or love that will start at the crown of the head and worked through the body.

Before I forget, there was more that Joseph witnessed in that first vision that he was not allowed to correspond. .

For me, I was converted by the same principle as Joseph Smith did, in approaching GOD about which church to join and whether or not Joseph Smith was indeed HIS prophet that commenced the restoration of the Gospel in these latter days. Both were answered and I can testify, it was not Joseph imagination what was given or prompting of a Spirit but will say this, that first vision the young Joseph did not receive the fullness of the Godhead at that time. This is another misconception I will find among members of the church.

[Islander]

As far as I am concerned, there is very little to discuss here. A very long time ago the CoC walked away from the duly appointed church and authority of God. They diluted the experience that Joseph had into something more to their liking and engaged in re-interpretation of the first vision. They no longer believe the BoM is paramount revelation but a good book of scripture.

By the second century AD some congregations drifted into Docistism or a gnostic belief that Christ did not actually had a body but he "seemed" to have one. So, this revisionism is not new. In time they will end up where all the rest are, diluted in a social exercise with Sunday scripture reading sessions.

[HiJolly]

Originally Posted by MyDogSkip

This thread is being started to discuss the differences between The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints(LDS) and the Community of Christ(CoC) formerly the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ (RLDS). This topic arose on another thread, and has hence been brought here.

At last count there are at least 100 different sects that utilize the Book of Mormon in their worship services and doctrine. Most agree on the call of the Prophet Joseph to restore the Gospel. As such, many agree with Josephs writings on the First Vision.

I was rather astounded when I was surfing the web one night several years ago, to discover that the Community of Christ web site had refined the First Vison, basically down to a hallucination on the part of the young Joseph.

Let me start with the LDS version of the First Vision:

As Joseph sought truth among the different faiths, he turned to the Bible for guidance. He read, “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him” ( James 1:5). Because of this passage, Joseph decided to ask God what he should do. In the spring of 1820 he went to a nearby grove of trees and knelt in prayer. He described his experience: “I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me. . . . When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!” ( Joseph Smith—History 1:16–17). In this vision God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, appeared to Joseph Smith. The Savior told Joseph not to join any of the churches, for they “were all wrong.” The Savior stated, “They draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof” ( Joseph Smith—History 1:19).

Mormon.org - The Restoration of the Gospel

Now the following is the Community of Christ's view of the First Vision:


In the early 1800s, a young boy named Joseph Smith knelt in the woods near his family home in Manchester Township, New York. He felt separated from God; he also wanted to know how he could make his life count for good in a world full of confusion and sin. He wanted to join with God’s people, but he had no idea how to do that. So, in response to the scripture from James, he prayed to God.

How long this first attempt at verbal prayer lasted is not known, but he came to a point of deep despair. At this point, a vision surrounded him with love and mercy. From that light came a voice as clear as his own. As the vision ebbed and the voice faded, Joseph felt that he knew the truth. He felt the healing presence of God within and the forgiving mercy of Christ. He knew that God would be with him.

He struggled through his teen years, trying to balance his experience with God with his desire to be accepted by others in his community. He continued to have significant spiritual experiences, one of which led to the Book of Mormon. He also felt called to establish a church, officially organizing it on April 6, 1830.

Our History - Introduction


As one can read...The Community of Christ has turned its back on the writings of our Prophet Joseph, in favor of a distilled "hallucination" of a young boy.

Additionally...and we can discuss this, the Community of Christ has turned it's back on the divine origins of the Book of Mormon.

I think both accounts are factually correct. Can anyone show a sentence in the CoC version that is incorrect?

I'd also like to point out that of the various recorded versions of the First Vision that we have, ONLY the CoC version agrees with all of them. I think we LDS tend to get a little hide-bound in our view, and refuse to learn of other 'true' accounts of the same event that do not agree entirely with 'our' familiar account.

HiJolly

[Hemidakota]

In a sense yes but no to this phrase: From that light came a voice as clear as his own. As the vision ebbed and the voice faded, Joseph felt that he knew the truth. Look, either we tell exactly what happen or nothing at all.

[HiJolly]

Originally Posted by Hemidakota

In a sense yes but no to this phrase: From that light came a voice as clear as his own.

Do you mean to say, that the voice was NOT as clear as Joseph's voice?
I think it's accurate.

Originally Posted by Hemidakota

As the vision ebbed and the voice faded,

Did the vision NOT ebb? Did the voice NOT fade? We all know that the vision ended, and that the voice also ended or ceased. I think that because it is worded in a somewhat vague way, you are saying it is not true. I don't think that is justified by the evidence.

Let me ask this: At what point did Joseph end up on his back?

Originally Posted by Hemidakota

Joseph felt that he knew the truth. Look, either we tell exactly what happen or nothing at all.

You cannot tell exactly, when you have many versions that do not all agree. We know which version Joseph finished with, and we accept it as scripture. But that does not mean that Joseph was lying, or mistaken, when he recorded the OTHER versions of the same experience.

I know Joseph had a marvelous First Vision. I am greatful for the various versions of that experience.

HiJolly

[Hemidakota]

I don't concur....if it is not his account do not bother even to attempt 'white wash' the fact.

If you witnessed the same, there are elements that Joseph left out for a reason. And no, that is not how it ends. That was being blunt Holly.

[rameumptom]

The Community of Christ is struggling. They are trying to have a foot in the Restorationist world, and one in the Protestant world.
In order to become a member of the World Organization of Churches, they had to downplay the Book of Mormon. The BoM now is optional for its members to believe in. Joseph Smith's testimony has been watered down, so as to make him a charismatic leader rather than a prophet (they don't ascribe hallucinations to him, however).
Many of their precepts have changed in the last decade or so. Their view that the prophet must be a direct descendant of Joseph Smith is no longer followed nor believed.
They have had many break away from the CoC, in order to keep closer to their Restorationist roots. Others have joined the LDS Church over the past few years.
Still, there are many good people in the CoC with a strong testimony of Christ and Joseph Smith.

[HiJolly]

Originally Posted by MyDogSkip

Of the "various versions" of the First Vision that are out there...NONE of them to my knowledge have reduced the event to an auditory hallucination...as the Community of Christ recently has...

Can you tell me where this is recorded? Your quote of the Coc's First Vision description said nothing of "hallucination". You've specifically mentioned that word twice, now, and yet you have not shown where THEY ever say the word.

Originally Posted by MyDogSkip

BTW...I'm happy to start a thread on the CoC's view of how the Book of Mormon came to be...

Help yourself. Several years ago at BYU I heard a lecture by the Historian of the CoC, he spoke much on their current state of belief re: the BoM and JSJr. It was quite shocking to me. They have truly gone away from a literal belief of these historical events.

Originally Posted by MyDogSkip

Hi...feel free to visit their website, as I posted the URL in my OP.

I did so, and I saw the word "hallucination" nowhere --- where is it? BTW, I really get annoyed when supposedly 'good' LDS people attack other faiths. Why do you do that? I don't think the CoC deserves it, regardless of how far their faith has digressed.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

Originally Posted by MyDogSkip

Clearly, your desire to be argumentative...overides your desire to discuss this topic...Sad...

You are not correct, MDS.

HiJolly