Book Of Mormon, Hoax?

[Barter_Town]

Originally Posted by Islander

In business is called benchmarking. People study and dissect the practices and guiding principles of the leaders in order to reach similar results.

Interesting. I'm not sure that Muslims consider Christians their leaders, or that they feel compelled to adopt their tactics, but interesting nonetheless.

Nowhere in the Qur'an or even the al-hadith are spiritual experiences mentioned, encouraged or sought as confirmation for the veracity of the Islamic cannon.

Well, Muslims say the existence of God is obvious, but the Qur'an does say that God will give you "signs", which I would think qualify as "spiritual experiences".

For example, in surah 27:93:

"Praise be to God. He will show you signs and you will recognize them. Your Lord is not heedless of anything you do."

The Ability to See the Signs of God - The Religion of Islam

So, when I hear Muslims inviting me and other non-Muslims at Ummah.com to read, ponder and pray, it sounds awfully familiar.

American Muslims are simply imitating (benchmarking) evangelicals and/or transferring part of their former theosophical jundra (since most were nominal Christians perhaps) into a religion that does not rely on such.

Interesting theory, but I wonder if it holds considering that most of the users / contributers at Ummah.com are British, and as such, probably not much influenced by American-style Christian evangelicalism.

In Islam you "declare" your acceptance of your belief in One God and that Muhammad is his prophet. You declare that in front of competent witnesses and you are s Muslim. There is no such things as spiritual insights, manifestations, personal revelation or guidance from God in the process.

I am sure a Muslim would say otherwise.

After all, what leads up to the "declaration"? It doesn't just happen spontaneously. People become convinced of its authenticity prior to conversion, obviously.

And given that Muslims believe that the Koran in itself is a revelation from God, I'm pretty sure that its entire purpose is precisely that -- to guide, give insight, and reveal God.

What happens on internet forums in America has little to do with true Islam as it is practiced and understood in the ME.

Not sure why you think they're American.. Ummah.com is based in the UK and most of its users are British, most of which are first generation English-speakers. Most have family in the ME and spend time in the ME as well. Go and familiarize yourself there, you'll see. But here you go:

From Wiki:

"The Islamic website Ummah.com, formerly the Islamic Gateway, is best known for the Ummah Forum, a large English Muslim internet forum. Ummah.com is based in the UK, as are the majority of its voluntary contributors and active forum users. It is fully owned by Waha Media Limited, and is financed entirely through donations."

Ummah.com - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I would think their understanding of Islam would have more to do with their own families and culture than this supposed emulation of American-style Christian evangelicalism that you seem to think of it as (not sure how you arrived at that conclusion anyway).

Attempting to equate such is quite dangerous and misleading.

I would think that if anything is "dangerous and misleading", it would be attempting to speak on behalf of a religion that is not even your own and attempting to discount their spiritual experiences as being derivative and not as legitimate as your own.

[Islander]

Originally Posted by Barter_Town

Interesting. I'm not sure that Muslims consider Christians their leaders, or that they feel compelled to adopt their tactics, but interesting nonetheless.



Well, Muslims say the existence of God is obvious, but the Qur'an does say that God will give you "signs", which I would think qualify as "spiritual experiences".

For example, in surah 27:93:

"Praise be to God. He will show you signs and you will recognize them. Your Lord is not heedless of anything you do."

The Ability to See the Signs of God - The Religion of Islam

So, when I hear Muslims inviting me and other non-Muslims at Ummah.com to read, ponder and pray, it sounds awfully familiar.



Interesting theory, but I wonder if it holds considering that most of the users / contributers at Ummah.com are British, and as such, probably not much influenced by American-style Christian evangelicalism.



I am sure a Muslim would say otherwise.

After all, what leads up to the "declaration"? It doesn't just happen spontaneously. People become convinced of its authenticity prior to conversion, obviously.

And given that Muslims believe that the Koran in itself is a revelation from God, I'm pretty sure that its entire purpose is precisely that -- to guide, give insight, and reveal God.



Not sure why you think they're American.. Ummah.com is based in the UK and most of its users are British, most of which are first generation English-speakers. Most have family in the ME and spend time in the ME as well. Go and familiarize yourself there, you'll see. But here you go:

From Wiki:

"The Islamic website Ummah.com, formerly the Islamic Gateway, is best known for the Ummah Forum, a large English Muslim internet forum. Ummah.com is based in the UK, as are the majority of its voluntary contributors and active forum users. It is fully owned by Waha Media Limited, and is financed entirely through donations."

Ummah.com - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I would think their understanding of Islam would have more to do with their own families and culture than this supposed emulation of American-style Christian evangelicalism that you seem to think of it as (not sure how you arrived at that conclusion anyway).



I would think that if anything is "dangerous and misleading", it would be attempting to speak on behalf of a religion that is not even your own and attempting to discount their spiritual experiences as being derivative and not as legitimate as your own.

Well, I really have no time to share with you what my insight into the Islamic world is. But I would reiterate my assertion that there is NO such things as personal revelation, spiritual insight or relationship with God as described in the Book of Mormon. I am not discounting anyone's spiritual experiences. I am merely stating that the text itself makes no reference to such, period.

What you bring as a reference of the "signs of God" is a very novel and fairly recent theory. It refers, by the way, to what Christians coined as "Intelligent Design" or the evidence of God's hand in the world around us. It does not relate to spiritual manifestations of any kind. The concept is foreign to Islam although, as I stated before, former Christians and western educated Muslims are stretching the jundra well beyond what Islamic scholars, ancient and modern, declare in regards to what the text actually says.

Believing, being convinced of or asserting something does not equate to revelation from God. Some people believe, claim to have evidence of and assert being the subject of demonic possession or alien abduction. Go figure.

It is certainly not my religion, but you remain completely and utterly ignorant of my background, history and level of insight and knowledge into the culture and the social environment of the ME. What I have stated here is not my opinion but facts that I can demonstrate with a significant degree of academic certainty. I would keep from doing so only because the thread should move on rather than being hijacked by us in a pointless argument.

[BenRaines]

Folks, I would suggest you start a thread regarding Muslims if that is what you wish to discuss.

This thread is being closed. Has run its course.

Ben Raines