A Few Questions

[bytebear]

My guess is the original poster is a Jehovah's Witness. The issues brought up seem to follow along that line of theology. Do I get a prize if I am right?

[john doe]

It's cut-and-pasted from an anti-LDS site. Doesn't matter which one, does it?

[rameumptom]

Dust:Hello all! I am really interested in Mormonism, but I really need some questions answered before I can think about joining.

1. Alma 7:10 says that Jesus will be born in Jerusalem, but Matt 2:1 says he was born in Bethlehem.

Ram: Alma says he would be born in the land of Jerusalem. This was one of the names of the area in the times of Jeremiah and Lehi, as now known from a Jeremiah Scroll in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Bethlehem is but a few miles from Jerusalem, and in 600 BC, most of Israel had already been taken by the Babylonians, leaving just a small land area. See the following article on it: LandOfJerusalem - Life, the Universe, and Etcetera

2. Alma 42:9 says that the soul never dies, but Ezek 18:4,20 says that the soul that sinneth shall surely die.

Rameumptom: It is referencing two different ideas. In one sense, the soul is eternal, living forever. However, the soul that sins, dies spiritually by being forever cast out of God's presence (unless he/she repents and partakes of Christ's atonement).

3. Mosiah 2:41 says that man shall dwell in Heaven, but Psa 115:16, Dan 7:27, and Rev 5:10 says that the saints shall dwell and reign on earth under Heaven.

Ram: both are correct. We believe that the earth shall receive its paradisiacal glory and become celestialized, a part of heaven (D&C 130). During the Millennium, before the earth is celestialized, it will be a paradise for man to live in under heaven.

4. Jacob 6:10 and Mosiah 2:39 say that the wicked shall be in never-ending torment, but Psa 92:7 says that the wicked shall be destroyed forever.

Ram: The concept that the wicked are destroyed, means that they are cast off from God. Revelation also states the wicked will be cast into eternal fire to suffer for their wickedness. We have to take all the scriptures together, in order to understand their context. Taking one Bible verse only can have it contradict the rest of the Bible.

5. The works of Joseph Smith, Lorenzo Snow, and Orson Hyde all state that God was once like men and mortal and elevated to His current position. Jam 1:17 and Mal 3:6 says that God never changes, He has always been.

Ram: As long as our eternity has been, God has never changed. For us, he has always been God, and has always existed. We must remember that prophets spoke according to the understanding they had. That understanding changed over centuries. Moses stated his law was an everlasting covenant, but Jesus said he fulfilled it. Which is it? They are both correct, depending on the time and context. For those alive in Moses' day, it WAS an eternal covenant for THEM. But in Jesus' day and after, animal sacrifice, circumcision and many other things were no longer held as needful in the new covenant.

6. Mormons observe the Sabbath day, but Col 2:16,17, Rom 14:5,6, and Gal 4:10,11 all state that we do not keep the Sabbath and let no one combat you for not keeping it.

Ram: Paul is discussing the Sabbath day of the Jews. However, that same Paul also kept the Sabbath. Remember, we believe in modern prophets that give us guidance that can trump some ancient teachings. Jesus taught his apostles to only preach to the Jews, and not the Gentiles. But that was trumped by Peter's revelation to visit Cornelius. Things change when there are prophets.

7. Mormons have restrictions on meat and drinks, but this goes against 1 Tim 4:4,5, Rom 14:1-4, 17, Col 2:16, 17, 20-22, Mark 7:19.

Ram: Once again, it is a living prophet trumping a dead one. Paul was speaking about Gentile Christianity not having to follow the Mosaic law's code of eating. Apostolic revelation trumped Moses' ancient revelation. Now, in our day, modern prophet's have been commanded new things for us to do.

8. Mormons say that those had not the law will be part of the resurrection, but this goes against Rom 2:12, 1 Thess 4:13, Eph 2:12, and especially Isa 26:14.

Ram: Prior to the resurrection, all the dead will have the gospel preached to them in spirit prison:

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1 Peter 3

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

1 Peter 4.

Clearly, all will hear the law and will be judged according to the law. Your views make God seem awful austere and quick to destroy/annihilate his Creation. I prefer to see God as a loving and good Creator, who wishes to maximize the blessings given to his children. "For God so loved the world...."

[Misshalfway]

Well, I can't improve on what's been said. Waiting for Dust to answer..... I so hope that even if there was a cut and paste that the person is still sincere. Some of that stuff is so compelling.

[Dust]

Originally Posted by rameumptom

Ram: Alma says he would be born in the land of Jerusalem. This was one of the names of the area in the times of Jeremiah and Lehi, as now known from a Jeremiah Scroll in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Bethlehem is but a few miles from Jerusalem, and in 600 BC, most of Israel had already been taken by the Babylonians, leaving just a small land area. See the following article on it: LandOfJerusalem - Life, the Universe, and Etcetera
Rameumptom: It is referencing two different ideas. In one sense, the soul is eternal, living forever. However, the soul that sins, dies spiritually by being forever cast out of God's presence (unless he/she repents and partakes of Christ's atonement).

Ram: both are correct. We believe that the earth shall receive its paradisiacal glory and become celestialized, a part of heaven (D&C 130). During the Millennium, before the earth is celestialized, it will be a paradise for man to live in under heaven.

Ram: The concept that the wicked are destroyed, means that they are cast off from God. Revelation also states the wicked will be cast into eternal fire to suffer for their wickedness. We have to take all the scriptures together, in order to understand their context. Taking one Bible verse only can have it contradict the rest of the Bible.

Ram: As long as our eternity has been, God has never changed. For us, he has always been God, and has always existed. We must remember that prophets spoke according to the understanding they had. That understanding changed over centuries. Moses stated his law was an everlasting covenant, but Jesus said he fulfilled it. Which is it? They are both correct, depending on the time and context. For those alive in Moses' day, it WAS an eternal covenant for THEM. But in Jesus' day and after, animal sacrifice, circumcision and many other things were no longer held as needful in the new covenant.

Ram: Paul is discussing the Sabbath day of the Jews. However, that same Paul also kept the Sabbath. Remember, we believe in modern prophets that give us guidance that can trump some ancient teachings. Jesus taught his apostles to only preach to the Jews, and not the Gentiles. But that was trumped by Peter's revelation to visit Cornelius. Things change when there are prophets.

Ram: Once again, it is a living prophet trumping a dead one. Paul was speaking about Gentile Christianity not having to follow the Mosaic law's code of eating. Apostolic revelation trumped Moses' ancient revelation. Now, in our day, modern prophet's have been commanded new things for us to do.


Ram: Prior to the resurrection, all the dead will have the gospel preached to them in spirit prison:
1 Peter 3

1 Peter 4.

Clearly, all will hear the law and will be judged according to the law. Your views make God seem awful austere and quick to destroy/annihilate his Creation. I prefer to see God as a loving and good Creator, who wishes to maximize the blessings given to his children. "For God so loved the world...."

Thank you Ram for answering my questions and to all of you who have responded. I have not cut and pasted anything. These were given to me by my brother who was discussing the Mormon beliefs with me. I am not a Jehovah's Witness. I am an fervent pursuer of the Truth. I would like to continue this discussion using Ram's answers.

1. I tend to remember that Bethlehem is always referred to as being in the region of Judah (Judges 19:18; 1 Sam 17:12; . It was the home of Boaz, Obed, Jesse, and David (Ruth 1:22; 1 Sam 16:1). Perhaps this prophecy helps: "But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose origin is from of old, from ancient days (Micah 5:2)." This one also: "And you, O Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for from you shall come a ruler who will govern my people Israel (Matt 2:6)." Refer also to John 7:42. Also, Judea as called in Matt 2:1 is the same as Judah.

Now, Jerusalem is the city where David lived on Mount Zion and Bethlehem is the city where David was born, a few miles to the south of Jerusalem. When looking at the Greek word polis (where we get the words policy, politics, and police), it can mean either where a person is originally from or where he lived. Thus, both Bethlehem and Jerusalem can be considered a city of David, but both are not necessarily the City of David. Christ's birth mirrored David's birth, and when he returns, he shall live and reign in Jerusalem in the Lord's Holy Mountain of Zion.

Anyways, the Holy Scripture usually cites a specific town in concerning the prophecies of Jesus as to add to his credibility, but I can accept that it perhaps means the regions around Jerusalem.

2 & 4. I will offer this retort: "This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be made worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering- since indeed God deems it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant rest with us to you who are afflicted, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his call, and may fulfill every good resolve and work of faith by his power, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.” 2 Thess 1:5-12

It seems clear that the destruction is aionios which means forever or eternal and not age-lasting as some other words may imply. Destruction is the word olethros and as Strong's shows, it relates to death or destruction of the flesh. Thus, these people who did not know God and did not obey the gospel will die and be dead forever.

3. Ram, I do not see a scriptural verse supporting this idea from the Holy Bible. Isaiah 9:7 says that Christ will sit on the "Throne of David," inheriting the Kingdom from his ancestor. Was David's kingdom in heaven or earth? Notice that it says Kingdom OF Heaven and Kingdom OF God and not in Heaven. I cannot find a single place in Scripture that Heaven is ever promised. I did find this quote though: "No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man (John 3:13)." Now some one might say that this was before Christ, but we must all remember that this account from John was written some fifty years after the death of Christ and is placed as true for not only in or before the time of Christ but also in the time of John and beyond. No man has ever ascended into Heaven.

5. Ram, you make a good point, but lets look at James 1:17: "Every good endowment and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change."

There is no variation (ou parallege). This does not say the word eternal but it is implied. There is NO CHANGE. The casted "shadow" is from this light coming from the Father, and this shadow does not turn or change. One person replied that I showed that Jesus never existed, but I think it would show rather that Jesus is not God.

6. Surely you would agree that we should do good and praise God on the Sabbath (unless you want to contradict Christ). But should we not do this every day? Thus, every day is a Sabbath, for we have a spiritual rest in the Lord (Matt 11:28-29), who is Lord of the Sabbath (Matt 12:8). We should not single out any day, but treat every day as the Lord's time to give honor and glory to our Father in Heaven. The apostles did not meet on the Hebrew Sabbath for fear of the Jewish authority. And so they met on the first day of the week when every person went back to work. They did not replace the day, for the Sabbath has not been replaced but rather extended to every day.

7. While gluttony and drunkenness are one thing, the apostles showed that those in Christ are no longer under the restrictions of the Mosaic Law, so why would Mormons who believe themselves to be in Christ then put restrictions back?

8. Ram, I believe you are misunderstanding Peter. 1 Pet 3:19 is speaking about the believers. They were in a spiritual prison of iniquity but were freed in Christ with the power of the Holy Spirit. They and the disciples shall be as Noah and his family, a remnant of people who shall be slaved while the rest are destroyed. If you read it in context with the chapter and epistle, this becomes clear. Now here is a quote of Peter rebuking Simon: "But Peter said to him, "Your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. Repent therefore of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity."

The important part of this quote is "bond of iniquity." Bond here is often used with the ligaments of flesh. Peter is saying that Simon is fleshly bound to his iniquity. Thus, Simon is a prisoner of his own flesh, doing unrighteous acts such as 1 Pet 3:20 says. But Simon would repent and follow Christ through Peter so that he may might be like Noah who was saved from the destruction of the flood. There is no inference of people who are already dead.

For your second quote, I think you believe that the gospel only pertains to what Christ and the apostles said. But that is not the case, the good news of Christ and the Kingdom was preached from the very beginning. The entire Old Testament is a "shadow of good things to come." The prophets and priests spoke about it as well as the Holy Father. This news is not unique to the people coming after Christ. It was promised to Adam and Eve: "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel (Gen 3:15)." Paul says that the seed (speaking of the seed of Abraham) is Christ. It is not of many, but of one. Christ is the seed promised from the very beginning. Thus the gospel was preached from the very beginning to those who are now dead.

I hope this helps explain my case and why I cannot believe Mormonism for the moment.

Love to you all.

[beefche]

Hello all! I am really interested in Mormonism, but I really need some questions answered before I can think about joining.

I hope this helps explain my case and why I cannot believe Mormonism for the moment.

So, which is it? Either you are wanting to learn or you've made your decision. Why come here to ask if you've already decided?

[Maxel]

Originally Posted by beefche

So, which is it? Either you are wanting to learn or you've made your decision. Why come here to ask if you've already decided?

Book never written:

Trolls: They Make Sense and Use Logic, by Just K. Idding

[Misshalfway]

I hope this helps explain my case and why I cannot believe Mormonism for the moment.

Hi Dust. Thanks for posting an answer.

I am gonna be honest with you. Your long retort actually doesn't help me understand your position. It really just makes it look like you are splitting hairs rather than really evaluating the LDS church on its merits. I get that the Bible is important. We love the book too and we actually do spend a lot of time dissecting the text as anyone in the religious world. We love the Bible but we aren't confined by it. You might continue to feel the frustration you do because you are trying fit something large and fluid into a very defined container. If "making it fit" is your indicator for finding truth, I don't know if you will succeed in your quest. It is my experience that the discovery of the unknown often requires us to leave the safety of the known. Frankly, you don't sound very open. Sincere maybe, but not open and that is problematic for discussions that lead to truth discovery.

This isn't a unique method you have chosen. Many have tried to find answers by drawing the same detailed comparisons as you have by using the bible text as the only measure. But it never goes anywhere really. I think that is why you hear people yelling about trolls.

My invitation would be to study and evaluate the LDS church outside your preconcieved notions and see what happens then.

[tubaloth]

Dust, you can find most of your answers here

http://www.fairlds.org/apol/

It does takes some searching, but the answers are there.


I do have a couple of questions for you, if you don't mind?

Do you believe that Revelation is still around? Do you believe its important for God to still speak to man?

Do you believe that prophets and apostles can still be on the earth? Do you believe the priesthood that ancient prophets and apostle held is still on the earth?

Last do you think God spoke to other nations then just what we have in the bible? Do you feel only those in the bible are the only ones that had the word of God?

Do you believe the bible to be perfect (no errors)?

Thanks, Good luck in your search for the truth!

[rameumptom]

Originally Posted by Dust

2 & 4. I will offer this retort: "This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be made worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering- since indeed God deems it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant rest with us to you who are afflicted, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his call, and may fulfill every good resolve and work of faith by his power, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.” 2 Thess 1:5-12

Ram: I agree that the wicked will be punished. Satan and those who fully follow him will be sent to Outer Darkness for all eternity. Those who repent will be forgiven and receive a kingdom of glory from God through Jesus' atonement.

3. Ram, I do not see a scriptural verse supporting this idea from the Holy Bible. Isaiah 9:7 says that Christ will sit on the "Throne of David," inheriting the Kingdom from his ancestor. Was David's kingdom in heaven or earth? Notice that it says Kingdom OF Heaven and Kingdom OF God and not in Heaven. I cannot find a single place in Scripture that Heaven is ever promised. I did find this quote though: "No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man (John 3:13)." Now some one might say that this was before Christ, but we must all remember that this account from John was written some fifty years after the death of Christ and is placed as true for not only in or before the time of Christ but also in the time of John and beyond. No man has ever ascended into Heaven.

Ram: we also believe Christ will reign on earth for one thousand years during the Millennium. We believe there is a difference between Kingdom of Heaven and Kingdom of God. In his well-known example of prayer, Jesus prayed that God's "will be done on earth as it is in heaven." The Kingdom of heaven is in heaven. The kingdom of God is the Church here on the earth. Revelation teaches that in the last day, the heavenly Jerusalem will come down and join with the earthly Jerusalem.

5. Ram, you make a good point, but lets look at James 1:17: "Every good endowment and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change."

There is no variation (ou parallege). This does not say the word eternal but it is implied. There is NO CHANGE. The casted "shadow" is from this light coming from the Father, and this shadow does not turn or change. One person replied that I showed that Jesus never existed, but I think it would show rather that Jesus is not God.

Ram: how shall we consider what that means? Has God's commandments to man changed? Yes. Has God's requirements for salvation changed between his role with the Jews and with Christians? Yes. So we have to be careful not to take a verse or two and paint with such a broad brush. God can change things, yet he is still the same unchangeable God.

Second, what does the term "eternal" mean? Time can mean different things to us and God. Peter suggests that one day for God is like 1000 years to man. Clearly our definition of eternity may not be the same for him.

6. Surely you would agree that we should do good and praise God on the Sabbath (unless you want to contradict Christ). But should we not do this every day? Thus, every day is a Sabbath, for we have a spiritual rest in the Lord (Matt 11:28-29), who is Lord of the Sabbath (Matt 12:8). We should not single out any day, but treat every day as the Lord's time to give honor and glory to our Father in Heaven. The apostles did not meet on the Hebrew Sabbath for fear of the Jewish authority. And so they met on the first day of the week when every person went back to work. They did not replace the day, for the Sabbath has not been replaced but rather extended to every day.

Ram: I fully agree that we should live each day as a holy day. The Sabbath is set aside for worshipping the Lord the entire day, however. I need to avoid shopping, working, and having others work on that day. And I need to focus the day on spiritual matters. Christ said that the Sabbath was made for man. Why? Because we need one day a week wherein we can fully focus on spiritual matters. We need to regenerate spiritually, renew our covenants in the Sacrament of communion, meditate, and do good works. Since I'm busy the other 6 days with work and other things, I do not have the chance to focus on spiritual matters as much as I would like. So, preserving one day of 7 for especial spiritual focus is important for humans to develop their relationship with the Divine.

7. While gluttony and drunkenness are one thing, the apostles showed that those in Christ are no longer under the restrictions of the Mosaic Law, so why would Mormons who believe themselves to be in Christ then put restrictions back?

Ram: Once again, it is an issue of living prophets. The Lord seemed satisfied with keeping the gospel exclusively for Israel until after Peter's vision. Once he was sent to Cornelius, suddenly everything changed, and the Jewish sect known as Christianity became its own religion.
D&C 89, which contains our Word of Wisdom, sets out by warning us concerning the conspiracies of men. Basic guidance was given on things to avoid and things to eat in wisdom. This was given in our day to ensure a healthy people. I find that those trapped in addictions struggle to the point that they often are unable to hear the Holy Spirit. Evil men would love that the earth lost its faith in God, and were imprisoned in addictions. I work in a prison, where over half of the offenders have addictions. Many of their crimes are due to their expensive addictions (theft, robbery, violence, etc).
LDS who live the Word of Wisdom on average live 10 years longer than other Americans. And they have lower rates of cancer, and other diseases.

Remember, the Surgeon General did not warn us about cigarettes until the 1960s, 130 years AFTER the Word of Wisdom was given. So, a commandment given of God that protects his people and assists them in staying close to the Holy Spirit is a very good commandment. This is why we believe this is the Restored Church, with living prophets that can give commandments just like Moses or Peter did anciently.

8. Ram, I believe you are misunderstanding Peter. 1 Pet 3:19 is speaking about the believers. They were in a spiritual prison of iniquity but were freed in Christ with the power of the Holy Spirit. They and the disciples shall be as Noah and his family, a remnant of people who shall be slaved while the rest are destroyed. If you read it in context with the chapter and epistle, this becomes clear. Now here is a quote of Peter rebuking Simon: "But Peter said to him, "Your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. Repent therefore of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity."

Ram: I am not misunderstanding it. It clearly denotes that the people of Noah's day would be taught. In this is a witness of God's great love and mercy for his children. Since Adam's day, billions of people have dwelt on earth. How is it that he can be a loving God, if he allows those billions to perish and burn in hell forever, simply because they never had a chance to hear about Jesus Christ and the atonement? Is that just? If God is all powerful, why cannot he create a way for all people to have the chance to hear the gospel message, and have a chance to repent and be saved? Or do we believe in a God that really isn't that good, as he deigns to destroy billions for his own purpose? I believe God to be good. I believe John 3:16, wherein God loved the world enough to send Jesus to atone for the sins of ALL mankind. Yet, is he really atoning for all mankind, if most are already condemned simply because they didn't have a chance to believe and repent? Either God sends Jesus to atone for all people, or he doesn't. Either God loves all the world, or only a small segment of it.
Early Christian writings, such as the Gospel of Nicodemus show that there is a spirit paradise/prison, where the dead await the resurrection and to be freed by Christ.
This again, is a blessing of having modern prophets to give us greater knowledge from God. The Bible is the word of God, but it is not complete. Nor does it teach us all things concerning God and his works. We know through the prophets of the Restoration that there is a Paradise and a Spirit Prison after death and before the resurrection. The righteous who believe in Christ will go to paradise, while the wicked and those who have not learned of Christ will go to spirit prison, where in the wicked will be punished for their sins until they do repent; and where the ignorant will be taught the gospel and given the opportunity to believe and repent.
Herein comes the great secret of how God loves the world, and how Christ's atonement can save all mankind.

For your second quote, I think you believe that the gospel only pertains to what Christ and the apostles said. But that is not the case, the good news of Christ and the Kingdom was preached from the very beginning. The entire Old Testament is a "shadow of good things to come." The prophets and priests spoke about it as well as the Holy Father. This news is not unique to the people coming after Christ. It was promised to Adam and Eve: "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel (Gen 3:15)." Paul says that the seed (speaking of the seed of Abraham) is Christ. It is not of many, but of one. Christ is the seed promised from the very beginning. Thus the gospel was preached from the very beginning to those who are now dead.

Ram: I agree that the Old Testament is a foreshadowing of the coming Christ. However, what of the billions who were not born in the tribes of Israel? What of those billions who did not get the chance on earth to know of Christ and his gospel? Are they to rot in hell eternally because they didn't win the Israelite lottery at birth? For this, we have modern prophets to teach us the things only hinted at in the Bible.

The main issue for someone considering being LDS is this: do you believe not only in the Bible, but in modern prophets and apostles that guide mankind, just as Moses and Paul did ancienty? If you cannot believe in living prophets, then this is not the Church for you.