The Great Apostasy- Why? - Page 2

mnn727 · #11 (**permalink**) 10-02-2009, 12:41 PM

God could force us to do whatever He wanted us to, but then there would be no sense in this earthly existance for us, we are here to learn and grow and freedom to choose is a required part of that growth, even if its bad choices and wickedness, In order not to force us God had to wait for conditions to be right, he knew they were coming and he knew that those that died never hearing the gospel would have a chance in the spirit world to hear it.

Satan wanted to force us, God allows us freedom, even if he knows we will mess up. The apostacy was mankinds fault. God restored teh fullness of teh Gospel as quickly as He could without trampling over mankinds agency

thecourt · #12 (**permalink**) 10-02-2009, 01:31 PM

The last poster is correct. Force is contrary to the plan. No one is going to forced to come unto Christ.

Vort · #13 (**permalink**) 10-02-2009, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mnn727

God could force us to do whatever He wanted us to

I believe this is false. Could God force us to be exalted? Clearly not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mnn727

Satan wanted to force us

Again, I believe this is false. Satan wants to destroy us, as he has wanted to do since he fell. I know of no scripture suggesting that Satan tried to "force us" to do anything -- unless you mean he wishes to destroy our agency. In that case, I agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mnn727

The apostacy was mankinds fault. God restored teh fullness of teh Gospel as quickly as He could without trampling over mankinds agency

I was going to object to your wording, but in fact I think you've touched on a deep and important truth that I am only just beginning to understand. Exaltation, salvation, indeed existence itself, seem to be communal efforts. No single entity called "mankind" will be judged before the bar of God or receive its single everlasting inheritance, yet in some manner our progress as individuals is circumscribed and even defined by our progress as a species. I still don't know what to make of this, but it seems to be a true principle.

pam · #14 (**permalink**) 10-02-2009, 09:34 PM

I'm not sure I believe the comment that Satan wanted to force us is entirely incorrect. Satan's plan was to take away our agency and therefore all would return to our Heavenly Father. Would that not in some way be force?

mnn727 · #15 (**permalink**) 10-03-2009, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pam

I'm not sure I believe the comment that Satan wanted to force us is entirely incorrect. Satan's plan was to take away our agency and therefore all would return to our Heavenly Father. Would that not in some way be force?

Exactly, Satans plan would have brought everyone back by forcing them to be rightous - this plan was rejected by our wise Father in Heaven as it would have prevented our freedom to choose.

mnn727 · #16 (**permalink**) 10-03-2009, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vort

I believe this is false. Could God force us to be exalted? Clearly not.
.

Why not, that was Satans plan, are you saying that Satan was more powerful than God. God could take away our agency and force us all to become exalted - of course in doing so it would be an empty victory all around.

Vort · #17 (**permalink**) 10-03-2009, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pam

Satan's plan was to take away our agency and therefore all would return to our Heavenly Father. Would that not in some way be force?

I don't believe the scriptures ever teach that Satan had any such "plan". The only teaching I find that bears any slight resemblance to what you have said is that Satan proposed a modification to the Father's plan in order to usurp his glory:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moses 4:1

And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.

Of course, Satan had no way to make good on his claim; he was lying, as should come as no surprise to us.

As I said before, I concede that, if you refer to Satan's desire to destroy our agency as an attempt to "force" us, then that might qualify.

Vort · #18 (**permalink**) 10-03-2009, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mnn727

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vort

I believe this is false. Could God force us to be exalted? Clearly not.

Why not, that was Satans plan,

I see no evidence that Satan had a "plan" beyond usurping the glory of God. If you can teach me the scriptures that tell of this Satanic plan, I would love to hear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mnn727

are you saying that Satan was more powerful than God. God could take away our agency and force us all to become exalted - of course in doing so it would be an empty victory all around.

No, he could not do so. Suggesting he could do so betrays a misunderstanding of what exaltation means. Compare Alma's teachings to his son Corianton about the meaning of "restoration".

mnn727 · #19 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 08:27 AM

We have to agree to disagree on this one.

Vort · #20 (**permalink**) 10-06-2009, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mnn727

We have to agree to disagree on this one.

I have noticed a tendency among some here (and other places) to say "let's agree to disagree" whenever they can't substantiate their argument. As near as I can tell, "let's agree to disagree" really means "I don't believe you, but I can't disprove what you say or buttress my own arguments, so instead of admitting that I might be wrong, I'd rather drop the whole topic."

Which is fine, as far as it goes, but it doesn't seem to me a very useful way to find truth.

Can you imagine if Pasteur's contemporaries had said, "Let's just agree to disagree about this 'microbiology' stuff"?