Very stuck on this LDS doctrine

[Lilac]

I think this is my total sticking point.

Anyone want to take a shot at it? I brought it up to the missionaries but the conversation didn't really answer my questions. Maybe someone here who was once Protestant can help me?

In reading about the LDS, I came across these teachings. I then looked up Bible verses about God.

I'd like to join the LDS church. I really, really like you guys. But this teaching? Having trouble with it...

Most important, are these quotes accurate? Are they true LDS doctine?

As a member of the LDS church, do you see a conflict? Why or why not? (that sounded like an essay question from high school).

Thank you for your help. I do appreciate it.



Mormon Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, page 123, made by the LDS Apostle Orson Hyde:

"Remember that God, our heavenly Father, was perhaps once a child, a mortal like we ourselves, and rose step by step in the scale of progress, in the school of advancement; has moved forward and overcome, until He has arrived at the point were He is."

Lorenzo Snow, late President of the Mormon church:

"As Abra'm, Isaac, Jacob, too, babes, then men--to gods they grew. As man now is, our God once was; As now God is, so man may be,-- Which doth unfold man's destiny. . ."

Bible verses:
Numbers 23:19, "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"

Psalms 102:26-27, "They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end."

Isaiah 43:10-11, "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour."

Isaiah 44:6, "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."

Isaiah 44:8, "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any."

[Palerider]

check this link out


Mormon Answers (LDS FAQ): The Divine Potential of Human Beings - or Do Mormons Believe They Can Become Gods?

[beefche]

Lilac, is it the thought that God may have been a man or that we can inherit all God has and become like Him? Or both?

[tubaloth]

Most important, are these quotes accurate? Are they true LDS doctine?

Yes.

As a member of the LDS church, do you see a conflict? Why or why not?

No, because there are two kind of stages talked about here.

Really there is a time where we all are learning and growing and progressing. There was a point before God was God. Before this point God was learning and growing just as we are.

So now lets take a break and see if there is a problem with this idea? I don’t have a problem that God at some point in time was learning and growing, and even to the point lived on some earth. Why? Because it shows even more that God knows what I’m going through. God understands the problems of life, not because of some all powerful knowledge, but because He did it. He knows about taking out the trash, knows about losing a loved one, nows about struggling with life. Does that make God less of a God? No.

The next idea to understand is that we believe that we can become like God. That our Heavenly Father loves us enough that he wants us to become like Him. God knows that a fullness of Joy is doing the same thing he is doing (Creating worlds and children). We believe this happen in some way to our Heavenly Father.

So that is next stage. At some point in time (we don’t know when) God past the test of his mortal life, was judged and gained all His Father had. (Gaining all means just that, All!). God then had all power. This being is the one we have faith in. Now God knows all because of his power. There isn’t any limitation to God!

So with that in mind lets look at the scriptures you sited.

Numbers 23:19, "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"

This one is easy. You can see this is trying to compare God with mans limitations. Obviously God doesn’t lie like Man does, nor does God need to repent. God is different then what man is. That isn’t to say that God isn’t in the FORM of a Man?

Psalms 102:26-27, "They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end."

Joseph Smith (I assume you know who that is) taught that God doesn’t change. We can’t have faith in God if we know he is going to change. That one requirement for salvation from on day isn’t the same requirement for the next, is a changing God. Even though God progressed (made choices) to reach his status, God is now not changing in the full sense of the word. God sets forth his commandments and they are his Law. God is bound by them just as much as we are! Again no conflict with this doctrine.

Isaiah 43:10-11, "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour."

I do find this scripture kind of funny. Do you actually think God is talking about all the corners of the Universe and talking about that there is no other God. OR do you think God is trying to teach that He is the only way to Salvation, and that no other God that man can form (Idols) is going to ever bring Salvation. This is teaching more about not worshiping other gods, mostly idols. I think we can agree that’s what this is talking about?

But taking it into light with our Doctrine it is still true. Our God or My Heavenly Father is the only God I ever need to know about. Heavenly Father is the only one that can provide my salvation (Through his Son). Even if there are millions of other God’s that doesn’t downgrade God’s power or his ability to Save me. Meaning just as my Father here on earth is always going to be my Father (even if there are millions of other Fathers). That relationship with my Father is always connected. The same with our God. His is always our God. Nothing changes just because there are others in the picture.

Isaiah 44:6, "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."

This would fit with the above scripture. God is teaching there is no other way to Salvation. Worshiping any other item or god (being it an Idol, or even be it some other God in some other universe) does not bring salvation to me, or to people under Heavenly Father.

Isaiah 44:8, "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any."

Same here, I think I have beat this to death.
The idea that we can become like God is the main doctrine taught by the church. That we can become Joint airs with Christ. What did Christ get? He sits with his Father? We are hoping through Christ we can obtain the same blessing.
The idea that God was once a man is really only an idea. We don’t know any more then just that idea. But fitting it in with the doctrine we know, it makes sense.


So I would like your explanation of really what Salvation is? What is the point of this life? What is the ultimate Goal or what are we trying to ultimately obtain?

Second would be your idea of God? I don’t know what protestants believe in?

My goal in all of this is find the root of who God is, see where things take a different course.

[hordak]

God isn't a name. It's a title. Otherwise "have no Gods before me" would make no sense.

I tell my kids I am their father, will always be there father, they have and will not have any other father then me, they had no father before me.

It doesn't mean there aren't other fathers, that i always was a father, or that they can't become fathers themselves.

[Just_A_Guy]

Lilac, it is not an article of the Mormon faith that God was once a man. It is not a doctrinal litmus test--you don't have to accept the idea to be baptized, or even to go through a Mormon temple.

That said: Most Mormons (myself included) do believe it, and from time to time this belief will come up in Sunday school discussions or whatever.

[deseretgov]

Originally Posted by Lilac

Mormon Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, page 123, made by the LDS Apostle Orson Hyde:

"Remember that God, our heavenly Father, was perhaps once a child, a mortal like we ourselves, and rose step by step in the scale of progress, in the school of advancement; has moved forward and overcome, until He has arrived at the point were He is."

Lorenzo Snow, late President of the Mormon church:

"As Abra'm, Isaac, Jacob, too, babes, then men--to gods they grew. As man now is, our God once was; As now God is, so man may be,-- Which doth unfold man's destiny. . ."

Bible verses:
Numbers 23:19, "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"

Psalms 102:26-27, "They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end."

Isaiah 43:10-11, "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour."

Isaiah 44:6, "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."

Isaiah 44:8, "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any."

All of these are true. Don't forget Pslams 82:6(Emphasis added):

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

[john doe]

Originally Posted by deseretgov

All of these are true. Don't forget Pslams 82:6(Emphasis added):

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

While it's possible those may be true, they are not doctrinal, and we as a church are not bound by them.

[Lilac]

I just wanted to pop in and say thank you for your responsess. I looked at them briefly but we are running around cleaning because the missionaries are coming after church and my house is really really trashed. It would be nice if they could sit on the sofa without a doll, lego, Barbie or someone's socks.

Just briefly, I am bothered most by the "God was a man". I just don't see that anywhere in the KJV. It really is a sticking point for me. My husband says "that could be a deal breaker". I do feel better that I don't have to attest to that and there is some room for personal interpretation.

That we can progress and be LIKE God, I'm OK with the word "like" in there. I think we will be God-like in the afterlife. I see references to that in the KJV, how we will be in glory with the Father.


The missionaries have told me to pray and see if I get a revelation. I don't feel I can pray openly and honestly if this is true unless I have a good understanding of LDS doctrine. I know I can't understand everything but I need to understand the big stuff. Maybe that is just me? But I finally figured out this is what I need to do.


Again, thank you for your help.

Many blessings

[deseretgov]

Originally Posted by Lilac

Just briefly, I am bothered most by the "God was a man". I just don't see that anywhere in the KJV.

Well it's not in the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, or Pearl of Great Price either.