Who was God the Father's "wife"?

[fatima]

Originally Posted by Just_A_Guy

No offense taken.

Per Mormon theology, Jesus was indeed God incarnate. Basically, there are three beings in the Mormon godhead--Elohim (God the Father), Jehovah (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit. All of them existed prior to the Creation; but only Elohim at that time had a physical body--the other two were spirits only; in the form of men but without physical substance (actually, there's a Mormon teaching that even spirit is a form of highly refined matter; but we can leave that aside for the present discussion). Moreover, the Being that most of the Old Testament prophets dealt with was, in fact, Jehovah.

The birth of Jesus represented Jehovah coming to earth in bodily form--so Jesus of Nazareth was indeed God incarnate. I'd be a little uncomfortable classifying Jesus as a "demi-god", because that would seem to imply that a) Jesus would remain forever as an "imperfect" sort of god, and b) Jesus' existence began at the time of His birth in Bethlehem. Neither notion, per Mormon theology, is correct.

I thought Mormon theology was that God the Father was a perfected/exalted man? How could Jesus be part of the godhead before He perfected Himself in this earthly life? I mean, I understand that you believe we have a "pre-mortal" existence, but I didn't think a man was "divine" until he had done his earthly time, so to speak.
I know you wouldn't say "demi-god" about Jesus, but again, I'm just trying to put it in terms I can understand.

[Just_A_Guy]

Originally Posted by fatima

I thought Mormon theology was that God the Father was a perfected/exalted man? How could Jesus be part of the godhead before He perfected Himself in this earthly life? I mean, I understand that you believe we have a "pre-mortal" existence, but I didn't think a man was "divine" until he had done his earthly time, so to speak.

In my opinion, officially the Church has no good answer for this question at present. I am interested to see what explanations will be offered here; because so far every orthodox explanation I've seen creates more questions than it answers.

There were some ideas taught by early LDS leaders--but never formally adopted by the LDS Church--that could provide an answer, but I think most of us Mormons would look at those ideas as virtually heretical today.

I know you wouldn't say "demi-god" about Jesus, but again, I'm just trying to put it in terms I can understand.

No problem, so long as you understand why Mormons would qualify such a classification.

[cleanvisit]

I believe that the church states that Heavenly Father has a wife but other than that, I don't think the church has explicitly stated anything else.

But please, correct me if I'm wrong. I'm all about reading Gospel Doctrine!

[deseretgov]

Originally Posted by fatima

No, I was not hinting at anything. Just trying to figure out why God would have used another woman, as it were, to give birth to His Son.

Because God's wife cannot produce children with Physical bodies. Now we have no idea how the production of children in Heaven occurs but We do know that it results only in the production of spirit children. And God's wife was already involved in the creation of Jesus' spirit.

If Jesus is not God Incarnate, as Trinitarian Christianity holds, then Jesus must've been half-and-half, I guess. A demi-god as in mythology.

Well Christ had to have the ability to remain sinless, which must be a godly power. He also had to have the ability to have immortality. That way he could suffer for all the sins of the world. If not he would have died in the garden. But He also had to have the mortal ability to die. Because he had to willingly give his own life. If we was purely immortal it would have been impossible for him to die. So in a way he was sort of half and half.

I thought Mormon theology was that God the Father was a perfected/exalted man?

Some believe this. It does seem to be a natural conclusion to many of our actual doctrines.

How could Jesus be part of the godhead before He perfected Himself in this earthly life?

Because being a God isn't a requirement to being in the God head. the Holy Spirit isn't a perfected mortal. he's only a spirit, yet he is still a part of the Godhead.

Hopefully some of that helped.

[changed]

Originally Posted by deseretgov

Because God's wife cannot produce children with Physical bodies. Now we have no idea how the production of children in Heaven occurs but We do know that it results only in the production of spirit children. And God's wife was already involved in the creation of Jesus' spirit.

Each after their own kind... immortal begets immortal - mortal begets mortal... Even in her perfect form was unable to have children in Eden. She had to eat the fruit, pregnancy seems like the cursed way of having children... Mother is a word with meaning after meaning.

Jesus - the "only" begotten child - begotten through an handmaid...

Well Christ had to have the ability to remain sinless, which must be a godly power. He also had to have the ability to have immortality. That way he could suffer for all the sins of the world. If not he would have died in the garden. But He also had to have the mortal ability to die. Because he had to willingly give his own life. If we was purely immortal it would have been impossible for him to die. So in a way he was sort of half and half.

correct - he had to be half mortal - Heavenly Mother is not mortal, a handmaid was needed...



Did I post this already? Abraham Isaac = Heavenly Father/Jesus... consider the roles of Sarah Hagar and who they represent

[fatima]

Originally Posted by changed

Each after their own kind... immortal begets immortal - mortal begets mortal... Even in her perfect form was unable to have children in Eden. She had to eat the fruit, pregnancy seems like the cursed way of having children... Mother is a word with meaning after meaning.

Jesus - the "only" begotten child - begotten through an handmaid...





correct - he had to be half mortal - Heavenly Mother is not mortal, a handmaid was needed...



Did I post this already? Abraham Isaac = Heavenly Father/Jesus... consider the roles of Sarah Hagar and who they represent

From what do you induce that Eve could not have children in the garden? God told A and E to "be fruitful and multiply" before the fall, so clearly she could have borne children prior, but didn't for whatever reason.
Jesus was 1/2 mortal and 1/2 Divine? How can a Divine being be only 1/2 Divine? He was fully both, otherwise He would not have been able to accomplish all that He did.
So, then if your theology says that we are "spirit children" in the premortal existence as children of the Heavenly Father and some unnamed heavenly mother, and Jesus is our elder brother, why was Jesus not made by two earthly parents as we are? My understanding is that God and Jesus were what we are, and they are now what we are intended to be when we reach exaltation, is that correct?
So, why was it all done differently for Jesus?

[Misshalfway]

Originally Posted by fatima

I thought Mormon theology was that God the Father was a perfected/exalted man? How could Jesus be part of the godhead before He perfected Himself in this earthly life? I mean, I understand that you believe we have a "pre-mortal" existence, but I didn't think a man was "divine" until he had done his earthly time, so to speak.
I know you wouldn't say "demi-god" about Jesus, but again, I'm just trying to put it in terms I can understand.

Disclaimer: This is not official doctrine. Only my current supposings on the subject.

We have been taught that Jesus is and was and always will be God. God the father is all powerful and all that too. We are taught officially that they are not progressing....not learning but the are in a perfectly righeous state of being while enjoying the blessings of eternal increase.....which I suppose could be characterized as part of eternal progression and what seems to define gods in the first place meaning that they go on. All other salvation has a ceiling to its capacity for increase.

I just read Abraham 3 yesterday, which is pretty deep stuff, but it seems that God lives in some unnamed place and that he governs from this place called Kolob and that there was a counsel of intelligences or spirit children of GOD and from amongst them he called and appointed the noble and great ones. One amongst them was chosen to be THE leader of this earth effort. That was Jesus. It also seems clear that all were good, but varying in levels of intelligence.

Jesus was the first spirit born of the Father. Is that alone what makes him special? It seems that he was chosen and that he understood what it meant to offer up his life and the partculars of eternal law that demanded justice be satisfied. He apparently understood and accomplished obedience and retained more intelligence than the rest of the intelligences as a result. It also seems clear that even with all his perfectness and Godhood status, he still needed to progress and get a body and contend with flesh and apparently be sired by God the father in order to have the physical power to perform the atonement and to choose it rather than just be killed. It also seems important that part of finishing the preparations unto the children of men , he had to report back to his father before Mary could touch him.

SO......what makes his progression different than ours? I don't know. Perhaps his progression is different than ours either because of the nature of his intelligence or because he simply was perfect in the pre earth life and was conincidentally the firstborn. It seems that we are different though, because we needed a savior and he did not. Apparently, you either progress by being saved or you progress by saving others. I don't see any other scenerio that works in my current understanding of the eternal progression model.

How's that for a brain dump?

[candyprpl]

Originally Posted by fatima

From what do you induce that Eve could not have children in the garden? God told A and E to "be fruitful and multiply" before the fall, so clearly she could have borne children prior, but didn't for whatever reason.

I just read this wonderful article by Elder Bruce R. McConkie, "Christ and the Creation"
(Ensign, Jun 1982)

In this article he states, "Mortality, and procreation and death had their beginnings with the Fall. One of the most profound doctrinal declarations ever made fell from the lips of mother Eve. She said: "Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient." (Moses 5:11.)

This article is full of valuable information about the relationship between the creation, the Fall, and the Atonement.

[fatima]

Originally Posted by candyprpl

I just read this wonderful article by Elder Bruce R. McConkie, "Christ and the Creation"
(Ensign, Jun 1982)

In this article he states, "Mortality, and procreation and death had their beginnings with the Fall. One of the most profound doctrinal declarations ever made fell from the lips of mother Eve. She said: "Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient." (Moses 5:11.)

This article is full of valuable information about the relationship between the creation, the Fall, and the Atonement.

Book of Moses? That must be BoM? I'm not a Mormon so I think the only discussion I can participate in can be from the Scriptures that we both accept. (IOW, I do not use the deutero-canonical books when I speak with born again Christians, as they do not accept them as inspired)
That said, it sounds like the BoM contradicts what we know from Genesis, so how is that reconciled?

[Just_A_Guy]

Originally Posted by fatima

From what do you induce that Eve could not have children in the garden?

To reduce candyprpl's excellent post, the answer would be simply "Revelation given to modern prophets".

God told A and E to "be fruitful and multiply" before the fall, so clearly she could have borne children prior, but didn't for whatever reason.

She could have, had she partaken of the fruit (which God had put before her). The conundrum was, He had also told her (at least for the time being) not to partake of the fruit.

So, then if your theology says that we are "spirit children" in the premortal existence as children of the Heavenly Father and some unnamed heavenly mother, and Jesus is our elder brother, why was Jesus not made by two earthly parents as we are?

1. Because no mortal could survive the pain that Jesus had to survive during His Atonement--a full-blooded mortal would have died before that atonement was complete.

2. Because a mortal, alone, would not have power over death--either to raise others (e.g. Lazarus) or Himself from the dead.