"Immodest" Dance Outfits: Much Ado About Nothing?

[Janice]

Originally Posted by pam

Modesty is not just cultural. [/B][/I]

I don't think anyone here said it is JUST cultural. But a few of us have said it's cultural.

My husband pointed out this quote to me (from by Elder David R. Stone April 2006 General Conference):

"What an insidious thing is this culture amidst which we live. It permeates our environment, and we think we are being reasonable and logical when, all too often, we have been molded by the ethos, what the Germans call the zeitgeist, or the culture of our place and time.

"Because my wife and I have had the opportunity to live in 10 different countries, we have seen the effect of the ethos on behavior. Customs which are perfectly acceptable in one culture are viewed as unacceptable in another; language which is polite in some places is viewed as abhorrent in others. People in every culture move within a cocoon of self-satisfied self-deception, fully convinced that the way they see things is the way things really are.

"Our culture tends to determine what foods we like, how we dress, what constitutes polite behavior, what sports we should follow, what our taste in music should be, the importance of education, and our attitudes toward honesty. It also influences men as to the importance of recreation or religion, influences women about the priority of career or childbearing, and has a powerful effect on how we approach procreation and moral issues. All too often, we are like puppets on a string, as our culture determines what is 'cool.'"

[Wingnut]

Originally Posted by Fiannan

Now now, culture determines a lot in regards to what is then considered appropriate by the Church or not. The girls at BYU would be seen as much exibitionists if they were sent through a time machine to Brigham Young's day as much as a group of coeds jogging topless in Idaho would be today. And even my wife once had a bishop who told the young women in his ward that they needed to wear bras to be modest yet Emma Smith never wore one, nor did any of Brigham Young's wives -- they had not been invented yet.

And I suspect that if a woman was representing the Church in a public forum yet had hairly legs (that were extremely noticable -- I am from Oregon you know) someone in authority would make a comment even though all women prior to fairly recent history had hairy legs except for prostitutes. This is due to cultural labels that would automatically attach to her even though there is nothing at all immodest about refusing to shave. And do remember, the Book of Mormon does say not a hair on your body will be lost. Sorry gals.

How many of our Seventies are military veterans? If they are I'll bet a few have tatoos. Maybe during the Korean or Vietnam War and the 1970s a man with a tatoo was not seen the way society sees them today. I doubt they would get one today but when they were younger a tatoo did not mean the same as it might now with many people. Yet I wonder about tatoos within the Polynesian and Maori LDS communities.

Again, culture.

Now we have the Church urging men to wear white shirts to meetings and ties yet in the 1980s I blessed the sacrament many times wearing colored shirts, sweaters, and even no tie. In time this may very well evolve into a mode of dress that is associated with LDS people. Again, no ancient Hebrew, Nephite or Lamanite wore a white shirt.

I am not saying in any way that LDS people should rebel against the standards promoted by the Church -- but if one recognizes the cultural context they can at least be less likely to challenge them. However, one should not be so quick to label people in a judgemental way if they choose to dress in accordance to the dance or athletic styles that are accepted in modern western culture as long as they are not swinging around a fire pole in a g-string in public.

I said it before, and I'll say it again: dead prophets...living prophets...dead prophets...living prophets.

[Janice]

Originally Posted by Wingnut

I said it before, and I'll say it again: dead prophets...living prophets...dead prophets...living prophets.

(Janice scratches her head...) Is it wrong to compare what used to be vs what is now and say, "Things have changed"?

[pam]

Does that quote say ANYWHERE that because of culture it's okay to go to a beach topless? Nope it doesn't. I don't know how anyone can say anything is okay because it's the culture of a certain country after reading Elder Hale's comments that I posted.

I like that last line.

All too often, we are like puppets on a string, as our culture determines what is 'cool.'"

Exactly the point I was trying to make. We are like puppets on a string because if one culture says it's okay then yep it's cool and okay. Not according to the remarks made by Elder Hales.

Thanks for posting that little remark. It only strengthened the point I was trying to make.

[Wingnut]

Originally Posted by Janice

(Janice scratches her head...) Is it wrong to compare what used to be vs what is now and say, "Things have changed"?

No, that's not wrong. The problem is that today is being compared to yesteryear and justification for immodesty today is being made because of yesteryear's customs.

[pam]

Well Janice after discovering what your email address is: I will now refrain from arguing or debating this issue. You aren't here to listen to what our Church Leaders have taught us concerning modesty. I totally understand where you are coming from now. Your email address told me everything. We would be beating a dead horse with the continuance of this.

[MarginOfError]

Originally Posted by Janice

I don't think anyone here said it is JUST cultural. But a few of us have said it's cultural.

My husband pointed out this quote to me (from by Elder David R. Stone April 2006 General Conference):

"What an insidious thing is this culture amidst which we live. It permeates our environment, and we think we are being reasonable and logical when, all too often, we have been molded by the ethos, what the Germans call the zeitgeist, or the culture of our place and time.

"Because my wife and I have had the opportunity to live in 10 different countries, we have seen the effect of the ethos on behavior. Customs which are perfectly acceptable in one culture are viewed as unacceptable in another; language which is polite in some places is viewed as abhorrent in others. People in every culture move within a cocoon of self-satisfied self-deception, fully convinced that the way they see things is the way things really are.

"Our culture tends to determine what foods we like, how we dress, what constitutes polite behavior, what sports we should follow, what our taste in music should be, the importance of education, and our attitudes toward honesty. It also influences men as to the importance of recreation or religion, influences women about the priority of career or childbearing, and has a powerful effect on how we approach procreation and moral issues. All too often, we are like puppets on a string, as our culture determines what is 'cool.'"

This is a prime example of why it’s important to read the entire talk. The title of Elder Stone’s talk is “Zion in the Midst of Babylon.” Elder Stone speaks of Israel, and how it was a concentrated gathering place—“an island of the one true God, surrounded by an ocean of idolatry.” Yet Israel constantly gave in to the culture surrounding them.

Let’s take a look at the rest of Elder Stone’s message following the passage already quoted:

There is, of course, a zeitgeist to which we should pay attention, and that is the ethos of the Lord, the culture of the people of God. As Peter states it, “But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light” (1 Pet. 2:9).

It is the ethos of those who keep the Lord’s commandments, walk in His ways, and “live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God” (D&C 84:44). If that makes us peculiar, so be it.

Seduced by our culture, we often hardly recognize our idolatry, as our strings are pulled by that which is popular in the Babylonian world. Indeed, as the poet Wordsworth said: “The world is too much with us” (“The World Is Too Much with Us; Late and Soon,” in The Complete Poetical Works of William Wordsworth [1924], 353). In his first epistle, John writes:

“I have written unto you … because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

“Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world” (1 Jn. 2:14–15).

We do not need to adopt the standards, the mores, and the morals of Babylon. We can create Zion in the midst of Babylon. We can have our own standards for music and literature and dance and film and language. We can have our own standards for dress and deportment, for politeness and respect. We can live in accordance with the Lord’s moral laws. We can limit how much of Babylon we allow into our homes by the media of communication.

We can live as a Zion people, if we wish to. Will it be hard? Of course it will, for the waves of Babylonian culture crash incessantly against our shores. Will it take courage? Of course it will.

If Babylon is the city of the world, Zion is the city of God. The Lord has said of Zion: “Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom” (D&C 105:5) and, “For this is Zion—the pure in heart” (D&C 97:21).

Wherever we are, whatever city we may live in, we can build our own Zion by the principles of the celestial kingdom and ever seek to become the pure in heart. Zion is the beautiful, and the Lord holds it in His own hands. Our homes can be places which are a refuge and protection, as Zion is.

We do not need to become as puppets in the hands of the culture of the place and time. We can be courageous and can walk in the Lord’s paths and follow His footsteps. And if we do, we will be called Zion, and we will be the people of the Lord.

The message that Elder Stone is trying to convey is that the Latter-day Saints should not be influenced by local cultural customs, but by the cultural commentary provided by the prophets of the Lord. In essence, we should be adopting the culture of Zion—the culture of the celestial kingdom—which is guided by revelation to those who have the keys of leadership in God’s kingdom.

Is it true that perceptions of morality vary from culture to culture? Yes, it certainly is true. But if we’re talking about adopting the culture of the US, Spain, Germany, Japan, Saudi Arabia, or any other temporal realm, we’re talking about adopting the wrong culture.

[pam]

This thread is now closed. Opinions have been expressed on both sides.