"Immodest" Dance Outfits: Much Ado About Nothing?

[Fiannan]

Now a story to explain my point. We had a womann from EFY (Especially For Youth) come speak to our young women and their parents about modesty, in are last ward. She was attractive. She worked out regularly. Ate right. She was not short of confidence. As she talked about modesty she focused on physical modesty. She told of an incident where she was told she would no longer be traveling or talking at EFY because of a modesty issues. She was surprised and hurt that anyone would consider her immodest. Her clothing never showed her garments. Sleeves, higher necklines, skirt lines down to the knees. She said it was a shock. She went home to pray about it. The only thing she could come up with was that her clothing was too tight and she was too proud of how her body looked. She had worked hard for it. She changed how tight her clothing was, asked to go back and was accepted.

Wow, whoever told her she was being immodest and was not willing to say why sure was displaying an excellent example of passive-agressive personality disorder.

[applepansy]

Originally Posted by Fiannan

Wow, whoever told her she was being immodest and was not willing to say why sure was displaying an excellent example of passive-agressive personality disorder.

We were only told her version of the story. I didn't have the opportunity to hear her supervisor's version.

I didn't get the feeling that he was passive-agressive when I heard her talk. I don't think she felt he was.

Fiannan, do you always jump to weird conclusions?

applepansy

[Elgama]

This is an article that caused me pause for thought, and I think fits with what applepansy is trying to say I have just posted 2 paragraphs from it
LDS.org - Liahona Article - Modesty: Reverence for the Lord

Outward Appearance—the Messages We Send

Imagine that you are watching a play. An actor comes on stage dressed as a clown but starts playing the serious part of the lead. You might react by thinking that this is inappropriate—there must be some mistake in the costuming or casting.

Now think of how inappropriate it is to go out into the world or come to church dressed in clothes that do not represent who you really are in spirit. Our outward appearance and behavior give a message. What message are we sending? Does it reflect that we are children of God? When we go to church or the temple, it is important that we dress to demonstrate that we are prepared to worship and to indicate that we are mentally and spiritually ready to invite the Spirit to be with us always.

Years ago, as a father and bishop in the Church, I could not understand the rationale of youth who dressed in wild colors and provocative fashions to show their “in your face” independence from modest, conservative dress codes and traditions. Then I would observe that, ironically, the rigid compliance of these youth to their bizarre dress codes required far greater obedience and conformity to peer-group pressures than that desired by society as a whole.

When we dress for attention, we are not inviting the Spirit to be with us. We act differently when we are dressed for the world’s attention. Moreover, what we wear will influence the behavior of others toward us.

Consider why missionaries dress conservatively in a skirt and blouse or in a suit with a white shirt and tie. How might someone respond if the missionary had unkempt hair and if he or she were dressed in blue jeans, flip-flops, and a T-shirt with a tawdry printed message? That person might ask, “Is this a representative of God?” Why would that person want to engage in a serious conversation about the purpose of life or the Restoration of the gospel with such a missionary?

Of course we don’t need to dress like missionaries all of the time. There are certainly times when modest casual clothing is appropriate. The point is this: How we dress affects how people react to us. It also demonstrates where our heart and spirit really desire to be.

How we feel on the inside shows on the outside. We show love and respect for ourselves and others by our attitude, speech, and dress. We show love and respect for Church leaders and ward or branch members by speaking, dressing, and behaving in a manner that does not bring inappropriate attention to ourselves. We show love and respect for friends and associates when our language, dress, and behavior are not provocative or unduly casual. And we show love and respect to the Lord through humble dress and behavior. “By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another” (John 13:35).
Putting on “the Whole Armor”

When we know who we are—children of God—and understand that our outward appearance affects our inward spirituality and ultimately our behavior, we show respect for God, for ourselves, and for those around us by being modest in dress and behavior.

My father, who was an artist, helped me understand this concept when I was a boy. He drew me a picture of a knight in armor and labeled the critical elements of “the whole armor of God” as described in the scriptures (see Ephesians 6:11–17; D&C 27:15–18). That picture hung in my bedroom and became a reminder of what we need to do to remain true and faithful to gospel principles.

Just as we are to “put on” the armor of God, we are to “put on” our clothes as protection for us and others. Clothing ourselves with modest dress and modest actions—mercy, kindness, humility, patience, and charity—will invite the companionship of the Spirit and will positively affect those around us (see Colossians 3:12, 14).

Are we determined to be Saints in the kingdom of God, or are we more comfortable in the ways of the world? Ultimately, how we dress will greatly influence our obedience to commandments and devotion to covenants. Dressing modestly will guide our attitudes and behavior as we conduct our daily lives. In time our dress may even determine who our friends and associates may be, thus influencing whether we live worthy of enjoying the blessings of happiness in this world and for eternity.

It is my fervent prayer that we will hold to our covenants and be modest in our dress and behavior as we attend church, visit the temple, and go about our daily lives. As we do so, we will show respect for ourselves, our parents, our Church leaders, and others, and we will show reverence to our Heavenly Father and invite the Spirit to be with us always.

[Janice]

Originally Posted by Hemidakota

Unfortunately, our culture deems it 'oK.' It is now up to you to make the choices on whether it is 'ok' by your own standards, for your children to wear it and be in the midst of others. Listen to the whispers of the Spirit for guidance.

Hemidakota, help me understand. Please explain in your own words why it is wrong for dancers to wear dancing outfits "in the midst of others". I would like you to provide me with a well thought out, clear, logical response.... more then just "it's wrong."

I just don't see anything wrong with wearing a dance outfit to dance. Wear what is appropriate for the occasion. Wearing a dance outfit to church would be immodest. So would wearing church clothes to dance in.

Listen to the whispers of the Spirit for guidance?!? Do you know how demeaning that statement is? It seems to me that you have assumed that I have *not* listened to the whispers of the Spirit for guidance, and if I just would, then I would know that it's wrong to let my kids wear a perfectly normal dance outfit "in the midst of others".

Don't get me wrong here... I am not getting huffy or puffy or upset... I just want to have a good discussion with you. If YOU think it's wrong for YOUR kids not to wear such an outfit "in the midst of others", that is totally fine. I won't judge you for it. But, you have implied that the Holy Ghost would tell ALL parents that it's wrong, if they will but listen to His whispers.

I would like you to defend your statement!

Janice

[Janice]

Originally Posted by Truegrits

I think that a 6 and 9 year old are old enough to keep their clothes on when playing, especially outdoors. Maybe you are in a secluded area where they are not viewed, but I would have a lot of trepidation about who might be watching them. I would be worried about their safety.
(Why are they taking their clothes off?)

Ok, I have a bad habit of talking to little (is that even possible?) I should really explain before someone calls child services.

We live in a secluded enough area where it's not too big an issue. They don't run around the neighborhood naked, but they do play in the back yard (where nobody else can see them) naked... from time to time... mostly in the summer when the heat is overwhelming and the cool water of the sprinkler cools them off. In such cases, they prefer to enjoy the sprinkler au-natural, and I have never seen a need to tell them otherwise. I did the same thing as a kid, and I wish I still could!

[Elgama]

Originally Posted by Janice

I just don't see anything wrong with wearing a dance outfit to dance. Wear what is appropriate for the occasion. Wearing a dance outfit to church would be immodest. So would wearing church clothes to dance in.


I would like you to defend your statement!

I would like to help him out - just because everyone does it doesn't mean we should. If your whispering says its OK thats fine you are your children's Mum for the reason you have the instincts to parent them, but I have the instincts as to how to keep my kids safe and for me unnecessary dance outfits in a pre-teen are not right for us.

I have had a lot of thought and progressed a lot in what modesty is, when President Hinckley caused my husband to have his lovely hair shorn off I was gutted took me time to get over, he has grown it on and off because at that point we had no strong testimony, same with white shirts etc however its something that the Ensign and General Conference seems to be concentrating harder on this year than in my previous 17 years of church membership. And for the first time I am really ready to take it in, this talk struck home to us from Dallin H Oaks talk:

What I said earlier about the importance of appropriate dress for those who receive the ordinance of the sacrament obviously applies with special force to the young men of the Aaronic Priesthood who officiate in any part of that sacred ordinance. All should be well-groomed and modestly dressed. There should be nothing about their personal appearance or actions that would call special attention to themselves or distract anyone present from full attention to the worship and covenant making that are the purpose of this sacred service.

Elder Jeffrey R. Holland gave a valuable teaching on this subject in general conference 13 years ago. Since most of our current deacons were not even born when these words were last spoken here, I repeat them for their benefit and that of their parents and teachers: “May I suggest that wherever possible a white shirt be worn by the deacons, teachers, and priests who handle the sacrament. For sacred ordinances in the Church we often use ceremonial clothing, and a white shirt could be seen as a gentle reminder of the white clothing you wore in the baptismal font and an anticipation of the white shirt you will soon wear into the temple and onto your missions” (“This Do in Remembrance of Me,” Ensign, Nov. 1995, 68).

Your question was which of you had the screwy idea about the dance class, answer is simply you both do and you both don't have the screwy idea because different things are important to different people, and that will be the case until we are all perfect, we are all just doing our best.

-Charley

[Janice]

Originally Posted by Elgama

I am not prudish we walk around home without clothes on, share baths have no lock on the bathroom, talk freely with my children about sex etc.

Sounds about like our house.

Originally Posted by Elgama

But I took my non member friends to see the BYU ballroom dance troop and I had a very hard time explaining away their outfits.... We are Latter Day Saints and just because everyone does it does not make it modest

Ok, here is where I start to scratch my thinker. I have heard lots of people tell me such-and-such is not modest, but I have yet to ever hear someone give me a good solid reason WHY. Can you help me out? Can you give me a logical, well thought out reason why the BYU Ballroom Dance Troop's outfits are not modest? Something more then "just because"?

Originally Posted by Elgama

If you are happy with them that is fine your daughter can attend but she has the right to make that decision for her daughters and you have the right to decide for yours, neither of you are wrong.

Thank you! I'm glad you said that. And I agree!

If you feel uncomfortable with an outfit, you have that right. Where I start to get my girdle up is when people say, "Those outfits are not modest." To which I would reply, "that's your opinion and you are entitled to it." But then they always seem to come back with, "How could ANY parent let their kids..." or "How could BYU let their students...."

Just because YOU think an outfit is not modest, does not mean the Universe must agree with you. Please don't measure me and all the other parents who let their kids wear these outfits by your home-made ruler.

That's just my $00.02.

And, I would love to hear your well thought out reason why the BYU Ballroom Dance' Team's outfits are not modest.

Janice

[Elgama]

Originally Posted by Janice

Sounds about like our house.



Ok, here is where I start to scratch my thinker. I have heard lots of people tell me such-and-such is not modest, but I have yet to ever hear someone give me a good solid reason WHY. Can you help me out? Can you give me a logical, well thought out reason why the BYU Ballroom Dance Troop's outfits are not modest? Something more then "just because"?

It actually wasn't my opinion initially, and bare in mind it was 14 years ago, but my non member friends were shocked that Latter Day Saints would dress with skirts split upto the thigh, tight, one looked like it was paint on a naked body. I grew up around the British junior ballroom dancing champion and attended a previous heavily decorated champion's dance school, immodesty is not necessary. And again for a beginners general dance class its not necessary. If the level of skimpiness is not necessary I won't go with it, if its necessary for the activity fine.

Set back my missionary work with my friends a good many years. As Latter Day Saints we are asked not to indulge in fashion extremes, and the show which could have been a good missionary opportunity for our area turned out to be a disaster for anyone I know who took a friend.

I have not attended a performance since, it might have improved. For me what made it immodest was the wrong kind of impression we made of the Church and its members

-Charley

[Janice]

Originally Posted by Elgama

Your question was which of you had the screwy idea about the dance class, answer is simply you both do and you both don't have the screwy idea because different things are important to different people, and that will be the case until we are all perfect, we are all just doing our best.

-Charley

Ok, very good Charley. Thanks. I agree 100% with your quotes from Oaks and Holland. I am all about looking sharp, clean, and well dressed on Sundays. With ya 100%.

Still not sure how that translates into "unnecessary" dance outfits being unsafe and not right. How does "We should dress reverently on Sundays" translate into "We should not wear dance outfits on Saturday"? I question your logic, but I respect your right to draw your own conclusions.

My opinion, and this is ONLY my opinion, is that our society has some very strong (and unhealthy?) lingering hang-overs from the Victorian age, when views on modesty shifted to an absurd extreme. I think so much of what we, today, think of as modesty is nothing more then tradition about what is appropriate and what's not.

I have studied, searched, and read every quote on The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints I can find on modesty, and I have found absolutely nothing that would indicate it's inappropriate for kids to wear leotards while dancing. Nor have I seen anything to support the notion that the BYU's dance team's outfits, or the BYU cheerleaders outfits, or the BYU track and field's short shorts and skin tight sports bras, or the BYU female volleyball team's skin tight outfits.... (you get the idea) are in any way immodest.

It is my personal opinion that the hang-up's people have over these kinds of outfits are based on a traditional and cultural objection to recognizing that the human body has shapes, curves, and parts. Some people feel more comfortable cloaking the human body in robes that hide this fact, and that puzzles me. If they want to do it to themselves and their kids, they have that right. But when they cast a judgmental eye at others who do not see things like they do... that's when I can't seem to keep quiet.

Again... I have dig into the depths of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and found nothing to indicate leotards while dancing are wrong If I missed something, please do let me know!!!

Janice

[Janice]

Weird. It turned w-w-w-.-l-d-s-.-o-r-g into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. huh.