Spanking

[Dravin]

I still can't wrap my head around the idea that, we as a society, condone hitting our children on the butt and that's o.k., yet if I slap my girlfriend across the face, I'm spending the night in jail (at least that long) on charges of battery. Don't get the double standard.

If you ground your girlfriend (time out would be a form of this) its kidnapping, but not if you ground your child.
If you refuse to feed your child its abuse, but not if you refuse to feed your girlfriend.
If your child breaks something you are responsible for it, but not if your girlfriend does.
You can force your child to submit to a medical procedure, but not your girlfriend.
Likewise, your child's care provider requires your permission to perform a procedure, but your girlfriend care provider does not require yours.

For better or worse children are not considered tiny adults who happen to live with you as you are legally liable for their behavior (to a degree) you are given greater latitude in your actions towards them compared to random other people, though there are limits (and obviously you consider a swat on the butt to be such). Actually if you think about denying somebody their freedom (jail/room) because they won't eat the food you've offered them it, or because they called your wife a naughty name creates quite the disconnect between how we treat out children and how we treat adults.

Me I don't spank because its an outgrowth of a lost temper (speaking personally here), made me a little sick inside when I realized why exactly I was spanking and how it was only tangentially related to behavior modification, which is why I don't do it anymore. That having been said I don't discount that there are parents and children for which spanking is effective and can be done with an eye towards behavior modification as opposed to some of the negative reasons that have been brought up in the thread and thus feel it still belongs in the parental tool box so to speak. And obviously there are degrees here, slapping Timmy on the back of the hand because he was reaching for the hot stove is a lot different than laying into a kid's backside with a switch or belt because he forgot to say please when he asked for the carrots at dinner.

[Just_A_Guy]

Originally Posted by Carl62

Also, not to throw a boomerang into this thread, but another form of capital punishment is washing a childs mouth out with soap (remember Ralphie in "A Christmas Story"?).

Good heavens, Carl--what kind of soap do you use?

FWIW, my parents didn't use soap. They just required us to take a spoonful of tabasco sauce.

[pam]

As much as I love tabasco sauce..a spoonful of it alone..nope I wouldn't like it.

[the Ogre]

Originally Posted by Just_A_Guy

Good heavens, Carl--what kind of soap do you use?

FWIW, my parents didn't use soap. They just required us to take a spoonful of tabasco sauce.

Tabasco wouldn't work on my kids. We use Korean gochujang (hot sauce with the consistency of peanut butter) in our cooking. Tabasco is just too mild.

[Carl62]

Originally Posted by Just_A_Guy

Good heavens, Carl--what kind of soap do you use?

FWIW, my parents didn't use soap. They just required us to take a spoonful of tabasco sauce.

Whoops! I meant 'corporal', not capital.lol O.K., so I was tired when I was typing Anyway, I would NEVER use it on any of my kids nor did my parents ever use it on me. Just wonderin' what everybody else thought.

[Dravin]

Originally Posted by pam

As much as I love tabasco sauce..a spoonful of it alone..nope I wouldn't like it.

I once drank a bottle of it once upon a time (I will confess there was peer pressure involved), don't really like it anymore, the vinegar upset my stomach so now I have bad gastronomical memories associated with it. Loves me my Sriracha sauce though.

I have known parents who've used hot sauce but you can always get used to it (and some have had children who have), I can eat cayenne peppers so some Tabasco isn't painful (of course at the time this would have been practiced it probably would have not been fun). Not sure if I could get myself used to a mouth full of Irish Spring though.

[PhDeverit]

Originally Posted by TeancumsSword

Um, not to intrude, but there is a difference be "beating" or "whipping" or laying a "hand of anger" on your children and disciplined, in-control, swat on the tush followed by an overflowing of love. In what he is saying, he is correct, but applying it to ANY physical punishment is, in my opinion, incorrect... and I'm not entirely sure the intent of his words. If it is this will be one of those instances where I will take church leaders words as their opinions.

Listen, not to be disrespectful or anything but when Gordon B. Hinckley, as a prophet, states in General Conference that "such punishment in most instances does more damage than good" you really should take it seriously. You would have to wrest the counsel I've listed to a pretty great degree to conclude that child buttock-beating is condoned.

Here is some educational literature on just what "damages" you could be inflicting by wresting this scripture:

Plain Talk About Spanking
by Jordan Riak

The Sexual Dangers of Spanking Children
by Tom Johnson

NO VITAL ORGANS THERE, So They Say
by Lesli Taylor MD, and Adah Maurer Ph.D.

Child buttock-beating for the purpose of gaining compliance is nothing more than an inherited bad habit. Its a good idea for people to take a look at what they are doing and learn how to DISCIPLINE instead of hit.

Most compelling of all reasons to discontinue this worst of all bad habits is the fact that buttock-battering can be unintentional sexual abuse for some children. Parents and Teachers Against Violence In Education is a great organization with plenty of data on the subject.

[PhDeverit]

Originally Posted by its_Chet

I’m a convert, was raised Catholic, and am from the rural Midwest, so consider all this while reading my opinion.

That said, my opinion is that spanking is the proper way to go, unless the Holy Spirit directs otherwise, which I would consider an exceptional case, but the Gospel is filled with exceptional cases, and I think a wise person will keep an open mind and be prepared to do what God wants when they come, rather than stick to their own ideas. Hopefully I practice what I preach, but I digress.

My parents spanked me quite commonly as a child. Both parents. They usually used a belt, at least for as far back as I can remember. When I was young enough that my Mom still bathed my brother and me, she noticed unsightly bruises and marks on our backsides from my Dad using a flyswatter on us. Up to that point, his preferred tool was not the belt, but those steel wire flyswatters with a plastic mesh stuck on it. He just pulled the plastic off and used the wire part. My Mom asked him to stop and so it was only the belt from that point on. I remember getting a newspaper in place of a belt on one occasion and I preferred the belt.

Looking back, my complaint, flyswatters aside, isn’t that my parents spanked, but that they spanked too often. I felt that they tended to spank first and ask questions later. I remember Bill Cosby, explaining the perspective of a parent, saying “We don’t want justice. We want quiet.” As a kid I thought this was just morbid sarcasm, but as a parent, I notice that I feel the same way. It seems more important to have order and peace in the house than to take the time to listen to the complaints, hold an impromptu trial, and make sure that the punishment doesn’t in any way exceed the crime. My two oldest kids fight like cats and dogs, more than I have ever seen any children fight in all my life. The spirit in my home is adversely affected by all the screaming, crying, and shouting, and I feel driven to lay down the law quickly and uniformly, so I tend to tell them that if they don’t knock it off, they both get a spanking, no questions asked. I guess maybe I understand how my parents felt when I and my brother fought.

For whatever it’s worth, I believe that spanking is the best way to go, in most cases. Of course, I believe that a child should be old enough first, and that it would be best to spank with a bare hand until the child is old enough that it isn’t effective anymore. And when a child reaches their teens, I think other methods need to be used.

I married a girl from the greater Phoenix area, and have encountered an uncommon degree of cultural conflict. I’ve noticed that out west, even in places where the people are politically conservative, there is a world view that seems leftist to me. For instance, the roles of men and women seem to be viewed differently. Among those cultural differences, there is a difference of opinion on what is the best way to discipline children. Where I’m from, even among members of the Church, we consider the aversion to spanking to be new age claptrap, an idea spawned inside the great and spacious building.

In addition to the cultural differences resulting from geography, I was raised Catholic. You never see children fussing in a Catholic Church, at least not where I’m from. I got in trouble from my grandfather once for passing out in Church (I had a fever). That’s the kind of reverence you can expect in a Catholic Church. Very stiff, very stern, very formal. But that’s how I was raised.

My wife doesn’t believe very much in spanking, though she is normally willing to not challenge my equality as a parent. She even spanks occasionally as well. But neither one of us seem to be having the level of success raising our children that we’d like. Our oldest seems to have some sort of cognitive disconnect. He’s getting better, but when he was younger I worried that he would grow up to be a crazy old man who sits on his porch and rambles a borderline coherent tirade against some unseen antagonist all day long. My wife says that spanking isn’t the best way to go with him because he “just doesn’t get it”. She may be right, but it’s all I know. If she comes up with a better idea, my mind is open.

You might be asking yourself how being raised like I was affected me. My parents were pretty strict about some things. My Mom made me take vitamins as a child that tasted exactly like vomit, and that’s no exaggeration. I wasn’t allowed to open a new box of cereal if one was already open, even if it was a different kind. There was a certain way everything had to be done I was expected to respect that. It was a bit of a drag as a kid, but now that I’m older I’m thankful that my parents raised me the way they did. I still got in trouble, and I suppose someone with less resilience than they had might have thrown their hands up in the air at some point and claimed it wasn’t working, but by the time I was a senior in high school, my idea of cutting loose and being wild was to skip school two or three times a year to go to the lake and hang out. I was taught to police myself, to anticipate discipline and avoid behavior that would incur it. I honestly believe that we’d have less crime if more people were taught to be considerate of others and behave themselves in such a way, and with respect for authority as well. That’s how I was raised and I love my parents for it. I shudder to think how I would have turned out if parents like some of the well intentioned but excessively mild people I know out west had raised me. Discipline made me a good citizen, and helped me to attain the mindset of one who respects God’s laws, and obeys them. That’s more than I can say for some people I know who were raised in the Church, particularly out west (especially in Arizona).

I’m not bagging the western states, mind you. I lived in Salt Lake City for a while and loved every minute of it. But I do tend to write off the opinions of people I perceive to be “cultural Mormons”, who feel that if you don’t have the right haircut, the right clothes, the right CDs and DVDs, and whatever else it is that means so much to them, than you couldn’t possibly have a strong and positive relationship with Heavenly Father. I frequently notice gaps in the testimony of those people, and see them as relying on their piety as justification for being prideful. I use mine as a tool to bring me closer to God. I wonder if that too is a product of how I was raised. At any rate, I would much rather face my judgment than that which awaits people who have criticized me for not looking like I came off an assembly line. And that goes for views on spanking also.

One last thing. Nothing I’ve said is meant to be “in your face” to anyone here. My frustrations may have been amplified here somewhat, and they have nothing to do with anyone here, so please take no offense or think I’m being uppity or anything. Just sharing a perspective that I see missing from the thread, for whatever it’s worth. God bless.

Already listed are a few quotes by prophets against child buttock-battering. I have also already listed some of the "damages" (as Gordon B. Hinckley put it) that can occur by such punishment (child buttock-beating).

[Hemidakota]

Originally Posted by Fiannan

So what are people's opinions on corporal punishment (for kids)? Does anyone have any LDS Church statements on this subject?

Beat them senseless... Not! There are times I used to employ some punishment with our first three. The last five understood this and never since did need to employ this type of punishment again. As I learned this from my father, it was a change for me in my life never to speak back and to honor my parents as a child.

[its_Chet]

Originally Posted by PhDeverit

Already listed are a few quotes by prophets against child buttock-battering. I have also already listed some of the "damages" (as Gordon B. Hinckley put it) that can occur by such punishment (child buttock-beating).

Could just be the skeptic in me, or maybe I'm just too lazy to look through all 10 pages of this thread, but could you put your quotes and such in a reply to me? I am sincerely interested to see them. I remain as yet convinced that the notion that there is anything at all wrong with spanking is just new age gobbledy-guk conceived by leftists and bohemians during the 60's and now beginning to permeate more traditionally conservative segments of American society.

True, I've heard on one occasion a General Authority (don't remember who) praised parents who "spare the rod", though it didn't sound like a ringing condemnation of those who don't. There are some parts of the country where people don't believe in spanking and parts were people do. I see it as a cultural issue, not a doctrinal one.

Also, we don't do any battering or beating where I'm from. I'm sure that would cause damage and is immoral. Spanking is something different though. It helped me learn respect for authority as a child, and eventually I learned to police myself. It would have been a terrible thing for me if my parents had not spanked me when I got out of line. I think it would be neglect on my part if I did not teach my children right from wrong, and when words don't work, I know from experience that the belt or paddle does. We don't spank our kids if we don't have to. But if we have to, we do it to keep them from getting the idea that they can defy authority with immunity.

When I was in high school, if you got sent to the principal's office you could choose between three days of detention or three swats with the paddle (made out of a 2 x4). The students almost always chose the paddle. Willingly. I doubt they'd choose that if it caused them any damage.

I'm not out to tell anyone else how to raise their kids. I apologize if I sound disrespectful. I've had enough threats, insults, and screeching heaped upon me by some of my in-laws about this issue though. I find some of their cultural practices and ideas to be very wrong, but I don't get in their faces about it. I wish they could reciprocate that respect, rather than see me as some kind of subordinate, subject to their will and imagined mandate. And that just reinforces my opinion that this anti-spanking stuff is a cultural by-product of the counter culture revolution of the 60s. The 60s didn't go over too well where I'm from.