Spanking

[PhDeverit]

Church magazines: You have said that your father never laid a hand on any of his children when disciplining them. 4

President Hinckley: That’s right. I don’t believe that children need to be beaten, or anything of that kind. Children can be disciplined with love. They can be counseled—if parents would take the time to sit down quietly and talk with them. Tell them the consequences of misbehaving, of not doing things in the right way. The children would be better off, and I think everyone would be happier.

My father never touched us. He had a wisdom all his own of quietly talking with us. He turned us around when we were moving in the wrong direction, without beating us or taking a strap to us or any of that kind of business. I’ve never been a believer in the physical punishment of children. I don’t think it is necessary.

Church magazines: Sister Hinckley, you have said that “you don’t teach a child not to hit by hitting.” 5

From At Home With the Hinckleys

I have never accepted the principle of “spare the rod and spoil the child.” I will be forever grateful for a father who never laid a hand in anger upon his children. Somehow he had the wonderful talent to let them know what was expected of them and to give them encouragement in achieving it.

I am persuaded that violent fathers produce violent sons. I am satisfied that such punishment in most instances does more damage than good. Children don’t need beating. They need love and encouragement. They need fathers to whom they can look with respect rather than fear. Above all, they need example.

I recently read a biography of George H. Brimhall, who at one time served as president of Brigham Young University. Concerning him, someone said that he reared “his boys with a rod, but it [was] a fishing rod” (Raymond Brimhall Holbrook and Esther Hamilton Holbrook, TheTall Pine Tree: The Life and Work of George H. Brimhall, n.p., 1988, p. 62). That says it all.

From Save the Children, Gordon B. Hinckley

It is not by the whip or the rod that we can make obedient children; but it is by faith and by prayer, and by setting a good example before them


“She might have whipped him and injured him, as a great many others would have done; but if they know what to do, they can correct the child without violence”

Chastening may be necessary, … but parents should govern their children by faith rather than by the rod

Although it is written that, “The rod and reproof give wisdom; but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame [Proverbs 29:15],” and, “He that spareth his rod hateth his son; but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes [Proverbs 13:24];” these quotations refer to … wise and prudent corrections. Children who have lived in the sunbeams of parental kindness and affection, when made aware of a parent’s displeasure, and receive a kind reproof from parental lips, are more thoroughly chastened than by any physical punishment that could be applied to their persons (DNW, 7 Dec. 1864, 2).

Instead of being behind with the whip, always be in advance, then you can say, “Come along,” and you will have no use for the rod.

From Brigham Young, Parental Responsibility


Use no lash and no violence against them

Joseph F. Smith, Wrongful Road of Abuse

There's more, but I thought this would be good.

BYU's School of Family Life produced additional quotations by Hinckley in "Helping and Healing Our Families" as well as several good reasons to discipline instead of hit

I agree with you-discipline is definitely missing in a lot of kids lives. Just to be clear, parental permissiveness is NOT something these organizations are advocating. I don't think the schools should have to deal with menacing behavior of these kids. I have empathy for the poor teachers of such students. I am advocating discipline, just not hitting. DISCIPLINE and child buttock-battering are two distinct things. I know of professionals who have corrected extremely unruly behavior by DISCIPLINE, without any hitting. I'm talking about kids in treatment programs that couldn't even go to school because they had severe behavioral issues.

I think the vast majority of parents have spanked (even the ones who are against it), but would rather do something else if they could. Peace.

[its_Chet]

Thank you sir!

This is the first time I have ever heard anyone suggest that it's a bad idea to spank your children in a way that didn't just reinforce my belief that it's the proper way to go. Up to now, everyone who'd ever approached me directly about this has always behaved in such a way as to embarrass themselves (even though they have no shame) and undermine their own credibility. I take exception with your use of the word "battering", but generally, you've done the opposite.

I'd be lying if I said you've changed my mind, but I can honestly say that you've done a tremendous amount of credit for your point of view on the sheer basis of your civility. I am usually willing to listen to anyone's opinion if they can be respectful about how they give it, and it gives you credibility, in my view.

The quotes from Gordon B. Hinckley (man it's hard for me not to call him President Hinckley) were worth reading, and helped you state your case with class and eloquence. Honestly, though, two things linger in my mind after reading them. First, I can't tell for certain, but it sounds like those were opinions rather than commandments (but for the record, the opinion of a Prophet is nothing to take lightly). Secondly, I keep thinking that if Gordon B. Hinckley was my kid, I wouldn't have to spank him either.

I hope I don't sound flippant. I apologize if I do.

More than anything else, I want to thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt that I'm not some pot bellied, smelly, creep sitting around in a grease stained tank top and beating my children for fun. That's the attitude I basically get from my in-laws, and they lack any credibility when trying to tell me how to raise my children when I consider their tone, their threats, their hostility, and the results of their own parenting skills. See, my mother in law wasn't very strict with my wife when she was growing up. My wife was able to behave promiscuously pretty much from the age of 12 right up until the day I met her. Her parents let her have boyfriends be with her in secluded places without supervision, and this, coupled with other issues has caused me inexplicable grief. I don't really want to get into all that, but the point is that the sloppy parenting of my in-laws has caused me tremendous pain, and yet my mother in law dares to tell me I'm the bad guy, essentially calling me a monster. I think most people can see how that would just make me dig in, reinforcing my beliefs.

Thank you for giving me credit and assuming that I'd prefer not to spank my children. I'd love to not have to physically separate them when they fight. I'd love it if all I had to do is tell them what is expected of them. I'd love it if they would respect my and my wife's authority. Unfortunately, it seems that the only way to keep order in my home is to spank them. Sometimes nothing else works. I usually try something else first, and sometimes it works, others it doesn't. I've prayed constantly, for years. I've fasted. Time seems to help, but sometimes nothing else but spanking gets my kids to behave themselves. I'd prefer if I didn't have to, but I don't see that being the case. And normally, the people who tell me I shouldn't spank them exhibit behavior that convinces me that they're simply wrong.

Thank you for being an exception. As I said, I'd be lying if I said you changed my mind. But I can say that you did give me pause for thought, and I am now reevaluating everything in a way that was not possible before.

You are a credit to your opinion. Never change.

[its_Chet]

Originally Posted by PhDeverit

I know of professionals who have corrected extremely unruly behavior by DISCIPLINE, without any hitting. I'm talking about kids in treatment programs that couldn't even go to school because they had severe behavioral issues.

I think the vast majority of parents have spanked (even the ones who are against it), but would rather do something else if they could. Peace.

You wouldn't happen to have a telephone number or mailing address for those professionals, would you?

[PhDeverit]

That bad huh? If you're serious, I could find some contacts.

[its_Chet]

My two youngest are managable, but my oldest is "hard to reach", if you know what I mean. When he was younger we thought he might be borderline autistic. He occasionally shows signs of sociopathy.

He's at Grandma's for the summer, but the plan is for him to come back in time for school. It would not surprise me if my wife asks her mom to keep him indefinitely, and that really bothers me. He's already spent a whole year with her not long ago.

What I'd like is to have my own son under my own roof, without it driving my wife (his mother) insane, literally. She's spent brief time in a psych ward for various issues, this being one of them.

So, independent though I like to believe I am, I may just need those contacts.

Again, thank you for your civility in discussing an idea that normally seems to bring out the worst in those who disagree with me.

[PhDeverit]

Some seriously heavy responsibilities on your shoulders. Personally, I don't see having a family dynamics consultant handy to call on as reflecting a lack of independence any more than having a family medicine doctor. I just see it as responsible.

This is a good contact right off. I'm working on finding the e-mail and exact mailing addresses of a couple more:


tom@guaranteedpt.com
LDS Parenting Coach, Postive Parenting Skills

He uses the model that Dr. Glenn I. Latham teaches(who has even been used to teach local parent classes here in Oregon). He is an LDS professional and author who writes a lot of useful books. There is some useful info right on the website.

Geography is also an issue. If you tell me the state and area in which you live, I will network to find some local info to give you so your oldest can receive some more focused attention.

Adding your son and family's name to the temple prayer roll might add some extra help and guidance.

Keep surviving! I'll send the rest of those contacts your way.

[its_Chet]

Thank you sir. Check for a PM.

[foreverafter]

I heard Pres. Hinckley in the 90's say in General Conference that he could not think of a situation that would warrant spanking a child. I think that says it all.

I believe that the phrase in the Bible "Spare the rod, spoil the child" is not speaking about spanking at all, though many have taken it as an excuse to do so. The word "rod" means "the scriptures" or the "words of the prophets", if we don't teach our children what the Prophets say & to be good & be an example of love & righteousness ourselves, then we certainly will spoil our child.

[tomdozier]

I am a behavior scientist and parenting coach. There is a large body of research that shows that the most effective way to eliminate inappropriate behavior (something you would spank the child for), is to build appropriate behavior (essentially the opposite of the bad behavior) through positive reinforcement. The problem is that it is a learned skill to do this, especially when you are faced with significant problems.

There are several problems with spanking
- It does not motivate a child to do good behavior. It just makes them reluctant to do the bad behavior (but not all the time).
- The emotional upheaval from the spanking can be so exciting that it serves as positive reinforcement for the bad behavior. If you are spanking a child for something, and he continues to do it, then you are probably reinforcing the bad behavior.
- After a while, spanking (and other harsh methods of correction) cause the child to countercoerce you (try to get even). So you can spank a child for not doing his homework, and he may cause a fight at school and get expelled, just to get back at you. This is quite predictable, especially as teenagers.
- Spanking damages the relationship, and reduces your positive influence with the child.
- the child learns by parents example that hitting is what you do when you are mad, upset, or when a person will not do what you want him to do.
- (in general) children respond to their parents the way the parent responds to the child. A parent who is harsh (spanking, yelling, etc), will tend to get the same treatment from their child.

One big problem is that people often say to not spank, but don't give you something to do instead. I teach parents these skills. Set up properly, you can teach what is expected, and have some immediate positive reward (play a game, get a treat, etc). There is skill to this, to make sure you get the results you want.

When it comes to children, your attention to behavior is almost guaranteed to give you more of the behavior. The quality factors for attention are: closeness (distance to child), touch, number of words, length of time, intensity of emotion (happy or angry). This means that you need to put a lot more time and energy into what the kids are doing right, instead of what they are doing wrong.

I run the LDS Parent Coach website, and work with parents regularly by phone to help them eliminate behavior problems. In fact, I guarantee these parenting skills work, and work fast. Short term results are the key. Parents can not put up with lots of bad behavior with the hope that things will get better. The key is to choose the top one or 2 problems and make plans to eliminate them by teaching and rewarding the desired behavior. It really works!

Spanking doesn't give you the results you want, but neither does letting kids do whatever they want to do. The times have changed drastically over the past 2 generations, and parents really need skills to be successful today.

Tom Dozier, behaviorist and LDS parenting coach.
"Helping parents succeed with their most important calling."

[lilered]

A good point I believe is made concerning the power of positive reenforcement vs. negative reenforcement. Recently, I have be able to get really close to a "Teacher" in our ward who is really opening up concerning this subject. To make a long story short, his father who is a ward leader never ever praises the kids for anything they do in the home, is very controlling, and uses screaming as his favorite tool for interaction and to impress upon them his desires. His son is now considering running away from home because of the stress and unhappiness he has and the concern he has for his brothers and sisters. I took the liberty recently of talking to his wife concerning this and relaying my concern for her son. Her response was that it was true and she feels powerless to intercede because the father turns his wrath on her for butting in. So, even when a church member is failing as a parent, the wife agrees but feels helpless, it would seem that the church is powerless to intercede, and/or should they? Her comment about the possibility of her son running away was, "I hope he takes me with him".