Spanking

[prisonchaplain]

Like crying for no reason, the example of your own daughter you gave? Is this the overt rebellion you are talking about? That doesn't seem like an extreme behavior.[/b]

If you recall the full example, she had done so on three occasions within an hour, and had been given warnings. Also, at 3.5 years old, the tap after the third warning did the trick. Her behavior was extreme that day...she normally will start such whining or crying, be warned, and stop. Also, I can count the # of times she's been spanked on one hand--and never much more of a tap (again, 3.5 years old). Come on, Shantress, give the parents of 3 under-fivers the benefit of the doubt. Come to think of it, that may be my real point in all my posts in this string.

[Cal]

<div class='quotemain'>
...doesn't mean that parents are somehow vindicated in thinking that spanking is therefore OK. Actually, IMHO, they are both bad parenting. Spanking is just one of many poor parenting behaviors. [/b]

I found quite a few interesting and diverse viewpoints at beliefnet.com. This site is explores many spiritualities, and so counts as fairly objective. In the poll on spanking I found myself in the largest camp--47% believing spanking is best used as a last resort. The article I chose to highlight (those interested should explore the several articles--including some that argue against using it) is an explanation from a self-proclaimed liberal parent as to why she uses spanking as a rare option.

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/70/story_7001_1.html
[/b][/quote]

I'm glad that you at least see spanking as a "last resort". However, give it a little further thought. If you haven't been able to solve the problem without spanking, what makes you thing hitting the kid is the answer?
There is no point in trying to convince me that the Old Testament types have a single thing to say to me about human psychology or proper human behavior when they found ways to justify slavery, and killing kids that talked back to their parents. The impulse to kill kids that talk back is the same impulse that motivates spanking. None of it arises from consideration of what is good for the kid. Spanking is hitting, period. Hitting is abuse. Cloak it in any euphemisms you want, doesn't change the fact.

As far as your answer to where you refered to the hitting that goes on it Singapore, all I have to say is: We don't live in Singapore, a country still emerging (culturally) from tribality. I hardly think we should try to justify hitting our kids because it is done to prisoners in Singapore.

[prisonchaplain]

I'm glad that you at least see spanking as a "last resort". However, give it a little further thought. If you haven't been able to solve the problem without spanking, what makes you thing hitting the kid is the answer?[/b]

At the stage my children are at (3 & 5--no we don't spank the 19-mos old), it's the shock value. Lecturing takes place at a very simple level, at this stage. Timeouts usually work, also--and only need to be a couple of minutes. It's the embarrassment of having done wrong. However, there are those rare occasions when the dreaded spank (I really made Mommy or Daddy disappointed in me) is mentioned or invoked that "snaps" the child out of their negative behavior escalation.

There is no point in trying to convince me that the Old Testament types have a single thing to say to me about human psychology or proper human behavior when they found ways to justify slavery, and killing kids that talked back to their parents. The impulse to kill kids that talk back is the same impulse that motivates spanking. None of it arises from consideration of what is good for the kid.[/b]

I think we are operating from a different understanding of what Scripture is, here. Yes, sometimes children who were "of age," engaged in the type of rebellion against parents and God that, if left unanswered, would threaten the moral fabric of society. These cases were not about child welfare, but about law and punishment. These weren't little kids, but adolescents. Your discussion is more akin to whether 16-year olds should ever be tried as adults, then whether spanking is appropriate for very young children.

]Spanking is hitting, period. Hitting is abuse. Cloak it in any euphemisms you want, doesn't change the fact.[/b]

We disagree. History is on my side. The law in some places is on yours. So long as we understand that people of good will can disagree, we're okay. However, my sense is we are not there. Am I wrong, or would you advocate for all corporal punishment to be illegal, and for parents who used it to be charged with child abuse. In other words, would you go so far as to criminalize spanking?

As far as your answer to where you refered to the hitting that goes on it Singapore, all I have to say is: We don't live in Singapore, a country still emerging (culturally) from tribality. I hardly think we should try to justify hitting our kids because it is done to prisoners in Singapore.[/b]

Singapore's history is primarily Chinese. It exceeds 5000 years of history. They might teach us a thing or two about what is civilized. I only used Singapore to point out that a society that is in many ways more advanced than ours finds occasional use for corporal punishment.

Something else to consider. Push too hard for banning all corporal punishment, and the backlash will be such that many forms of actual abuse will be tolerated in the name of parents vs. an over-intrusive state. Our revulsion for government meddling is mighty strong in this country.

[Heather]

I found a pdf file off of the love and logic website about spanking that might interest some of you. I don't think it helps anyone to say, "Spanking is wrong," but then give no alternative, because it's quite simple to see that yes it can work. My belief is that spanking can work, but there are other methods which have been proven to be even more effective. I would be very interested (being a parent myself) to see if the love and logic methods are more effective in parenting rather than spanking. I would love to run a mini-case study through this thread to see if another method is more effective than spanking or if spanking still brings about the best results. (But I also know that I don't like anyone telling me how to parent, and I don't want to come across that way either. This is completely on a volunteer / mutual-curiosity basis.)

http://www.loveandlogic.com/pdfs/0401tvarticle.pdf - Look at the second page specifically, titled "Practice Alternatives to Spanking" The first two paragraphs really jumped out at me in regards to PC's stance on spanking. I think he is a good and loving parent, who probably has wonderful children who sometimes push the limits, just like every other child.

[StrawberryFields]

Have you seen the Nanny Shows on TV? They never hit to get the desired behavior.

[shanstress70]

I LOVE to watch those Nanny shows. I always learn so much from them.

And thanks, Heather, for that article. I will be getting that book to read... seems like a lot of great ideas.

Although my child is not aggressive, per say, there are still lots of great points in the article.

I have had the problem with my 3 year old being interested in 'shooting' people after his dad let him watch Star Wars for some stupid reason. He has agreed that it was a mistake and we will not let him watch things like that in the future. But the damage has been done and we somehow need to de-program him. He's all about 'shooting the bad guys'. He talks about it a lot. I've finally got him to see that in real life we don't shoot the bad guys... we call the police and let them put them in jail. I'm afraid I have a vigil ante on my hands.

For a while there, he was in a phase of pointing his finger at me and 'shooting' me when I asked him to stop a certain behavior. Had to nip that in the bud... and no, I didn't have to spank him to have success!

I've been told that it's natural for boys to be obsessed with guns and shooting the bad guys. Do any of you experienced parents have any advice on this? Except for that one movie, we have always been very conscious about what he watches, and have tried to keep him away from violence.

[mom_of_jcchlsm]

Shan, unless you keep him locked in his room all his life, he's going to be exposed to it. He'll get it from other kids at school, and even from friends at Church. You can - and should - control what comes into your home (movies, TV, video games, etc.), but you're not going to prevent exposure. Talk openly about it. Express your concerns and feelings. Be prepared, though -- he will use your dislikes to irritate or infuriate you on purpuse when he's older (you're giving him an obvious tool to push your buttons if your reaction is strong enough -- kids know what hurts Mom, and will use it). And yes, it does seem that almost all boys play war at some level, and I don't think that's all bad. It's an elementary form of good vs. evil and a building block to being willing to fight for what is right - to defend what is good. I certainly don't want a generation of total pacifists being raised in my homeland while other societies are raising willing fighters.

[shanstress70]

Shan, unless you keep him locked in his room all his life, he's going to be exposed to it. He'll get it from other kids at school, and even from friends at Church. You can - and should - control what comes into your home (movies, TV, video games, etc.), but you're not going to prevent exposure. Talk openly about it. Express your concerns and feelings. Be prepared, though -- he will use your dislikes to irritate or infuriate you on purpuse when he's older (you're giving him an obvious tool to push your buttons if your reaction is strong enough -- kids know what hurts Mom, and will use it). And yes, it does seem that almost all boys play war at some level, and I don't think that's all bad. It's an elementary form of good vs. evil and a building block to being willing to fight for what is right - to defend what is good. I certainly don't want a generation of total pacifists being raised in my homeland while other societies are raising willing fighters.
[/b]

Good ideas, Mom. I guess you're right that the good guy/bad guy scenario is something of value that he is learning. Last night when he went to bed, he wanted me to tell him a story about GI Joe shooting someone with his gun. I told him that we don't shoot people. He said, "But GI Joe does, and he's the good guy. He shoots the bad guys."

Who ever thought you'd have to teach a 3 year old about war? I explained in the most simple terms that sometimes it's necessary to shoot people to protect your country or family. This parenting business is tough stuff!

[Dr T]

Hello PC,

Just a side note. I'm pretty sure there is no "spare the rod spoil the child" proverb. I think that's a common misperception. Just like, "God helps those that help themselves." Let me know if I'm wrong though...

Thanks,

Dr. T

[Josh M]

Spanking is wrong on several levels. First, it doesn't work. Second, it teaches one thing: When you are frustrated with the behavior of another, physical agression is appropriate. Is that really the lesson we want the child to learn? I know the first to be true, because, I tried it. Very ineffective. Bottom line: kids that get hit, learn to hit, not how to behave. Kids only learn how to behave by seeing adults they respect behave well, and by feeling secure in their relationships with those adults. Spanking is just a euphamism for physical agression or hitting. Just because the Bible condones it doesn't make it right or true. After all, the Bible also condones slavery, capital punishment and a bunch of other uncivilized behaviors.
[/b]

I got spanked a lot when i was a kid. I dont abuse anyone. And I must also disagree about:

"kids that get hit, learn to hit, not how to behave."

I learned how to behave not how to hit when I got spanked. The last thing I wanted to do was do something wrong and get spanked for it, i hated it. Although your statement might be true for some kids.