It is a choice.

[cofchristcousin]

I don't think you and I will find agreement on whether gays can change their orientation or not. I am intrigued by your thought on Love. I do tend to agree with much of what you have said. But, I'm not seeing where this is an arguement for exclusively heterosexual unions. Many gays have decades long unions. Many gays choose to be celibate if they have not found a partner to spend their lifetime with. When I look at people in gay unions and straight unions, I see the same love, commitment, respect, generosity and holiness. To me, Love (I Corinthians) is Love, not bound by the gender or orientation or other requirements I might place on it.

[changed]

Originally Posted by cofchristcousin

I don't think you and I will find agreement on whether gays can change their orientation or not. I am intrigued by your thought on Love. I do tend to agree with much of what you have said. But, I'm not seeing where this is an arguement for exclusively heterosexual unions. Many gays have decades long unions. Many gays choose to be celibate if they have not found a partner to spend their lifetime with. When I look at people in gay unions and straight unions, I see the same love, commitment, respect, generosity and holiness. To me, Love (I Corinthians) is Love, not bound by the gender or orientation or other requirements I might place on it.

Love languages is a great book, I recommend it to everyone.

I see how hard an issue it is. I also believe that God has commanded against homosexual unions. 1 Cor - When we are to love everyone, be of one heart and one mind - this is not talking about sexual union. We can love one another without having sex with everyone.

For some, this might be their Abrahamic sacrifice, their offering they put on the alter. We are asked to give some things up so that we can have something better. It is about putting trust in God, thy will, not mine be done kind of thing. God's will is that only married man and woman should engage in sexual intercourse. This seems to be best for children, and for raising families (see other thread). As that is what heaven is all about - together forever, eternal families, and hetero fams make this happen, I see that preserving marriage between a man and a woman is eternally important.

[MarginOfError]

Saying that homosexuals choose to be attracted to people of the same gender is like saying that I choose to be attracted to the Victoria's Secret angels--let's face it, those women are smoking hot!

The fact of that matter is we have preferences. We are often attracted to certain people and can give no rational or objective reason why. We may notice trends (I tend to be attracted to brunette women), but we notice the trends retrospectively. The average person does not go out and say to themselves "I am going to be attracted to this kind of person." More often than not, it's an instinctual thing.

Homosexual may choose to engage in sexual activity just as well as heterosexuals may, but engaging in sexual activity is radically different from identifying one's self as homosexual. And someone already mentioned that there are those in the Church--and yes in leadership--who believe that many who choose a homosexual lifestyle were born with those tendencies.

If you want to condemn the sexual acts between homosexual partners, I welcome you to do so as long as you condemn them on the same level on which you condemn heterosexual fornication. It seems to me that applying a heavier dose of condemnation to same sex fornication than to cross-gender fornication exhibits an immature understanding of the gospel and a discriminatory nature that does not well suit the disciples of Christ.

[changed]

Originally Posted by MarginOfError

Saying that homosexuals choose to be attracted to people of the same gender is like saying that I choose to be attracted to the Victoria's Secret angels--let's face it, those women are smoking hot!

The fact of that matter is we have preferences. We are often attracted to certain people and can give no rational or objective reason why. We may notice trends (I tend to be attracted to brunette women), but we notice the trends retrospectively. The average person does not go out and say to themselves "I am going to be attracted to this kind of person." More often than not, it's an instinctual thing.

Homosexual may choose to engage in sexual activity just as well as heterosexuals may, but engaging in sexual activity is radically different from identifying one's self as homosexual. And someone already mentioned that there are those in the Church--and yes in leadership--who believe that many who choose a homosexual lifestyle were born with those tendencies.

If you want to condemn the sexual acts between homosexual partners, I welcome you to do so as long as you condemn them on the same level on which you condemn heterosexual fornication. It seems to me that applying a heavier dose of condemnation to same sex fornication than to cross-gender fornication exhibits an immature understanding of the gospel and a discriminatory nature that does not well suit the disciples of Christ.

read this:
People Can Change - An alternative, healing response to unwanted homosexual desires

people actually can change their preferences. Sure, it may be hard, but it can be done.

[Elphaba]

Originally Posted by changed

People have changed, people can change. It is a choice. Everyone needs to know that it is a choice, that change is possible.

So, hypothetically, if you wanted to change from a heterosexual to a homosexual, you could do it? How would you do that?

Also, exactly how old were you when you chose to become a heterosexual, and what forced you into making that choice?

Elphaba

[cofchristcousin]

Should there be a disclaimer attached to this thread? The American Psychiatric Association and other professional organizations consider conversion/reparative therapies potentially dangerous for gays.

[MarginOfError]

Originally Posted by changed

read this:
People Can Change - An alternative, healing response to unwanted homosexual desires

people actually can change their preferences. Sure, it may be hard, but it can be done.

And perhaps you should read this: Helping Those Who Struggle with Same-Gender Attraction

allow me to provide you with a salient quote:

Next, if you are a parent of one with same-gender attraction, don’t assume you are the reason for those feelings. No one, including the one struggling, should try to shoulder blame. Nor should anyone place blame on another—including God. Walk by faith, and help your loved one deal the best he or she can with this challenge.

Didn't he just say that no one should shoulder the blame when a person feels homosexual tendencies. To not assign blame implies not assigning credit. It also implies not assigning guilt. Does that inherently imply a lack of choice?

In doing so, recognize that marriage is not an all-purpose solution. Same-gender attractions run deep, and trying to force a heterosexual relationship is not likely to change them. We are all thrilled when some who struggle with these feelings are able to marry, raise children, and achieve family happiness. But other attempts have resulted in broken hearts and broken homes.

Think about that "not an all-purpose solution" a little bit. You are trying to generalize results from a few small proportion of the homosexual population to the whole group. Common sense, let alone statistical rigor, would tell you how foolish that is.

LDS doctrine and policy does not support the idea that homosexuals can or should change their sexual orientation. You can believe whatever you want, but don't expect to win converts from anyone who studies the Gospel thoroughly.

[MarginOfError]

Originally Posted by changed

read this:
People Can Change - An alternative, healing response to unwanted homosexual desires

people actually can change their preferences. Sure, it may be hard, but it can be done.

Also thought I'd point out that according to the statistics in your link, somewhere between 25 and 30 percent of individuals demonstrated "at least some shift" in their sexual orientation. A very loose definition, a small proportion, and I guessing out of a cherry picked sample. I highly doubt these results would translate well to a generalized population.

Even under great research conditions, these "change programs" are rather unsuccessful.

[Elphaba]

Originally Posted by changed

Elphaba, NArth is one side with one agenda, yours is the other side with another agenda. Each biased with agendas. No one can find out any truth anymore because nothing is published that does not have an agenda behind it.

I don't agree no one can find any truth anymore, but I do agree it can be difficult sometimes, given how sensitive this topic is.

The point is, for those who struggle with this, you can change. It might be hard, justlike it is hard for a drug attic to change, etc. You can change though, seek help, others have changed, you can too.

You just contradicted yourself.

NARTH does have an agenda, and part of that is to post studies and essays about how people who are gay can change. Other organizations with a similar agenda do the same.

So how can you determine of NARTH is telling the truth given its agenda?

Finally, why should anyon, gay or straight, want to change? The desire to changes comes from the bigotry, and horrible violence, from the outside world.

But that doesn't mean people who are gay are unhappy with themselves being gay. In that sense, who cares whether they want to be gay or not?

It's not my business.

Elphaba

[changed]

Personally I think that trying to change would be worth it... I mean if the alternative is a life of celebacy without every being married etc... vs. trying to change, wouldn't you want to at least give it a shot?

Of coarse change BEFORE getting married. Marriage is not a solution to anything.