It is a choice.

[Elphaba]

Originally Posted by changed

Personally I think that trying to change would be worth it... I mean if the alternative is a life of celebacy without every being married etc... vs. trying to change, wouldn't you want to at least give it a shot?

No, and even President Hinckley said men who are gay should not get married. He said it would be unfair to his wife.

Humorously, I don't think President Hinckley realized women could be gay as well, because he didn't mention anything about a man being hurt, and I think that's sort of funny.

As far as living without marriage, many people in the Church do that. I'm not saying it's exactly the same thing, because it's not. A person who is gay will not have that to look forward to while in this life. Conversely, many single heterosexuals in the Church may think it will happen some day.

However, the Church does teach that when the person who is gay has passed on, s/he will have the opportunity to have a family and chldren. I'm not saying this is a panacea to the pain of not being able to ever have a relationship on earth, but to a believing member who is gay, it would be at least something to look forward to.

Obviously I can't say this is true in every single case, but usually those who can "change," are not really gay--they are bisexual. It is true many bisexuals can make a choice and stay with that choice. Again, it's more complicated than that, but, in a nutshell, those are the people who can "change,"

But a person who is truly gay, cannot. And you don't realize the hurt you cause people when you keep insisting they can.

Finally, why do you care? Why is it your job to pursue people who are gay and show them they can change.

Because that's not what it feels like you're doing. It feels like you're trying to justify why the Church is opposed to gay marriage, and to do that, you have to make it personal by telling them they should choose to change into what you think they should be.

That is their decision, not yours.

This is what I mean by this incessant focus on gays and everything that is wrong with them. There is nothing more wrong with them than there is with you. There are just a lot more of of you.

Elphaba

[cofchristcousin]

Originally Posted by changed

Personally I think that trying to change would be worth it... I mean if the alternative is a life of celebacy without every being married etc... vs. trying to change, wouldn't you want to at least give it a shot?

Of coarse change BEFORE getting married. Marriage is not a solution to anything.

You should read the stories of gays or maybe talk to some gay Christians. It might give you a wider perspective.

I don't know ANY gay person who didn't try to change their orientation. The idea of having to be celibate is small potatoes compared to knowing that your loved ones and God will turn their back on you if you are gay. Even when the stakes and motivation are that high, at the end of the day you are still gay.

If you get past that, learn to trust that God will never leave you, and you find that some people will love you and even accept you, you learn to accept yourself. Being is gay is not a problem, believing you will lose God's love and your church and your loved ones is what kills a soul.

Homosexual Saints By William D. Russell is good read, I know many of the contributors. It isn't theology, mainly just stories of gays and their families.

[bytor2112]

I don't pretend to understand the whole g/l issue, but I do believe that one can refrain from acting on these feelings. This is an excerpt from an interview with Elder Dallin Oaks.

PUBLIC AFFAIRS: If we were to look back at someone who had a ‘short fuse,’ and we were to look at their parents who might have had a short fuse, some might identify a genetic influence in that.

ELDER OAKS: No, we do not accept the fact that conditions that prevent people from attaining their eternal destiny were born into them without any ability to control. That is contrary to the Plan of Salvation, and it is contrary to the justice and mercy of God. It’s contrary to the whole teaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which expresses the truth that by or through the power and mercy of Jesus Christ we will have the strength to do all things. That includes resisting temptation. That includes dealing with things that we’re born with, including disfigurements, or mental or physical incapacities. None of these stand in the way of our attaining our eternal destiny. The same may be said of a susceptibility or inclination to one behavior or another which if yielded to would prevent us from achieving our eternal destiny.

[cofchristcousin]

Of course. Lots of gay and straight people are celibate by their own choice. That isn't really an issue in my mind. It's whether celibacy is the only choice for gays, and if gay families should have equal treatment under the law.

[Elphaba]

Originally Posted by bytor2112

I don't pretend to understand the whole g/l issue, but I do believe that one can refrain from acting on these feelings. This is an excerpt from an interview with Elder Dallin Oaks.

This is why I don't understand the need to keep denigrating people who are gay. Elders Oaks and Wickman are very clear they can have all of the same blessings, and responsibilities, including a mission, that any other person in the Church can.

They also say if someone who is gay needs to repent, that is his/her opportunity just like any other's.

They need to be accepted for who they are, fellowshipped into Church, and treated without stares, whispers or mocking, including gossip about "why hasn't he changed?"

To do otherwise is cruel.

Elphaba

[Just_A_Guy]

Originally Posted by Elphaba

So, hypothetically, if you wanted to change from a heterosexual to a homosexual, you could do it? How would you do that?

Also, exactly how old were you when you chose to become a heterosexual, and what forced you into making that choice?

Elphaba

Wasn't there an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation where Riker fell in love with an alien who was heterosexual, but the alien's culture valued homosexuality and she was ultimately "reprogrammed"?

[Elphaba]

Originally Posted by Just_A_Guy

Wasn't there an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation where Riker fell in love with an alien who was heterosexual, but the alien's culture valued homosexuality and she was ultimately "reprogrammed"?

No, you dork. She was androgynous.

And yes, I do believe her fellow alien's had to reprogram her to become androgynous. I distinctly recall the letters "NARTH" on their jackets.

Elph

[Just_A_Guy]

NARTH Vader?

(Oops. Mixed up my SciFi.)

[Fiannan]

Humorously, I don't think President Hinckley realized women could be gay as well, because he didn't mention anything about a man being hurt, and I think that's sort of funny.

Now Elphaba be serious, that would be like suggesting many women enjoy porn, hate visiting teaching or that some women might be abusive towards their husbands or children? Isn't there someting in LDS culture that recognizes the whole "sugar and spice and everything nice" as nearly doctrinal?

[bmy-]

Originally Posted by Elphaba

This is why I don't understand the need to keep denigrating people who are gay. Elders Oaks and Wickman are very clear they can have all of the same blessings, and responsibilities, including a mission, that any other person in the Church can.

They also say if someone who is gay needs to repent, that is his/her opportunity just like any other's.

They need to be accepted for who they are, fellowshipped into Church, and treated without stares, whispers or mocking, including gossip about "why hasn't he changed?"

To do otherwise is cruel.

Elphaba

I've got a good friend who just recently came out and admitted that he was gay. The backlash he takes from people who were once his friends.. is unreal. He was married.. it hurt his wife.. but they are fine now. He was encouraged to get married by his bishop when he was younger.. even with the knowledge that he was gay.

I'm not sure if he'll be able to stay an active member with the kind of crap he faces. He's effectively been kicked out of the social part of church.

I can say this.. it's not a choice.