A Race and Sexual Orientation at least similar?

[rameumptom]

Originally Posted by TheJosmo

One thing I notice racial minorities and homosexuals have in common are certain very vocal individuals who seem to place their identity solely on the fact of their race or sexual orientation.

"I can't ever succeed in life because I'm black and whites hate me," or "I'm gay, so I'm going to dress like a girl and pretend I'm Perez Hilton" type of people.

This rather seems a bit intolerant of other people. Redheads have not been persecuted in centuries. Blacks were being hanged and kept down with Jim Crow laws just a few decades ago. That is a huge difference.

Being white, I will never fully understand the Black experience. But I worked for 16 years in the inner city and started a LDS Church branch in Tuskegee Alabama. I've listened to the perspective and struggles they go through, even today. And I've seen the racism of LDS members as the missionary work was expanded in the South to blacks in the 1980s and early 1990s. We still had racism going on in some of the branches of the Church in Alabama as late as 2000 that I'm aware of. I've had members, including ward leaders, proclaim they were not going into those neighborhoods. I've have people complain about a black sister being called to be a Primary teacher, because she would be teaching the white kids. It isn't very pretty to see the ugly side of your ward members.

They do have concerns. Legitimate concerns. And they do not trust us, because we tend to screw them over and over again. Remember the treaties we made with the Native Americans? We whites tend to not treat others very well, even though we convince ourselves that we do.

Instead of ignoring their complaints, we should honestly look at them and see if there is any legitimacy to them. And then fix those problems. That doesn't mean we need to give 40 acres and a mule to every black person. But it does mean we need to consider them as genuine members of society and bring them into the fold.

[Vort]

Originally Posted by rameumptom

Being white, I will never fully understand the Black experience. But I worked for 16 years in the inner city and started a LDS Church branch in Tuskegee Alabama. I've listened to the perspective and struggles they go through, even today. And I've seen the racism of LDS members as the missionary work was expanded in the South to blacks in the 1980s and early 1990s. We still had racism going on in some of the branches of the Church in Alabama as late as 2000 that I'm aware of. I've had members, including ward leaders, proclaim they were not going into those neighborhoods. I've have people complain about a black sister being called to be a Primary teacher, because she would be teaching the white kids. It isn't very pretty to see the ugly side of your ward members.

They do have concerns. Legitimate concerns.

Up to this point, I'm in total agreement.

Originally Posted by rameumptom

And they do not trust us, because we tend to screw them over and over again. Remember the treaties we made with the Native Americans? We whites tend to not treat others very well, even though we convince ourselves that we do.

You just lost me. This is pure bunk.

A black kid murdered my cousin in DC in the 80s. Can I therefore say that "blacks" are murderers? That "blacks" don't treat my family very well?

Bull crap.

I have never "screwed over" a black person. I have also never made any treaties with Native Americans. If you want to take responsibility for the evil actions of white people of previous generations, more power to you. But leave me and my family out of your "white guilt". I'm not buying into it.

[candyprpl]

Vort -- why did you take that so personally? Ram did stereotype whites just like we can sometimes stereotype other races. And stereotypes do come from some and I say some, meaning very little, truths.

I'm very happy that you and your family live the gospel. My father who grew up in Texas and had a racist father was a great example to me for how to love and accept other's differences. I am grateful for the upbringing I had and I think I passed that onto my children. So yes, they're are good white people out there and stereotyping can get us into trouble.

[Vort]

Originally Posted by candyprpl

Vort -- why did you take that so personally?

This is an excellent question, one for which I don't have a ready answer. Let me ask in return: What is a more appropriate and reasonable way to take someone's words?

[candyprpl]

As just another's opinion and not directed at you. I didn't see it mentioned that this includes Vort and his family. My argument still stands. Love ya Vort.

[rameumptom]

I also do not recall mentioning Vort or his family. I do remember giving examples of recent racism against blacks, and why many of them still do not trust white people.

That does not mean all white people are evil or racist. It does mean that many of our policies (made primarily by white people) in the past have been tough on minorities. Vort, would you agree with me in saying the Jim Crow laws were racist and bad? Would you also agree that they were made by white people?

Sometimes a person may not think he/she is racist, and can be kind and good to others, but draw a line due to race, which they would not due otherwise. How many white people today still wouldn't want their daughter to date or marry a black man?

It is an experience that I cannot fully explain that I've had over the years working in the inner cities. One can only appreciate it by experiencing it. And yet, I still do not fully understand what many blacks have experienced in our country.

[Vort]

Originally Posted by rameumptom

I also do not recall mentioning Vort or his family.

Then perhaps you should reread what you wrote:

Originally Posted by rameumptom

And they do not trust us [white Americans], because we tend to screw them over and over again. Remember the treaties we made with the Native Americans? We whites tend to not treat others very well, even though we convince ourselves that we do.

Besides the overt racism of the above statements, I wonder if Rameumptom can provide me some examples of other peoples in the world who treat others better than "we whites". Seems like I just read a news article about a scandal where a recent Hollywood movie being released in Europe had a black couple removed from promo posters, because movies starring black people do far worse there than movies with white people. The example was given that Will Smith, currently among the top movie stars in the US, ranks no better than 17th among American stars in Europe.

Originally Posted by rameumptom

That does not mean all white people are evil or racist.

Let me remind you:

Originally Posted by rameumptom

And they do not trust us [white Americans], because we tend to screw them over and over again. Remember the treaties we made with the Native Americans? We whites tend to not treat others very well, even though we convince ourselves that we do.

Originally Posted by rameumptom

Vort, would you agree with me in saying the Jim Crow laws were racist and bad?

I agree they were racist, by present-day definitions of the word. I do not necessarily agree that they were "bad", though as a 21st-century American, I don't agree with them. I very probably would have agreed with them had I been a white American of the South at the time, and so would you. That does not make us "bad" or "evil".

Originally Posted by rameumptom

Would you also agree that they were made by white people?

Yes. But they were not made by "me", nor by "us".

Originally Posted by rameumptom

Sometimes a person may not think he/she is racist, and can be kind and good to others, but draw a line due to race, which they would not due otherwise.

So a good, kind person is still "racist" if he uses race as a determining factor in anything?

I don't necessarily disagree with you. I simply point out that, if this is true, it renders the term "racist" about as offensive and derogatory as the terms "Democrat" or "wine aficionado".

Originally Posted by rameumptom

How many white people today still wouldn't want their daughter to date or marry a black man?

I don't know. What of it? How does this relate to the fact that you were implicating me in your white guilt, as if I somehow share such a foolish burden?

And you never answered my questions -- an unintentional oversight, I am sure. I will provide them again for your benefit.

A black kid murdered my cousin in DC in the 80s. Can I therefore say that "blacks" are murderers? That "blacks" don't treat my family very well?

[Misshalfway]

I don't think Ram's point is an implication on all white people. I think he is trying to illustrate that how trust can be damaged. When a person has been profoundly and repeatedly hurt, it really doesn't matter what ones logical brain says about the next person I meet. The logical brain may say....hey this guy should be judged on his own merits. But the traumas kinda dismantle that ability.

Case in point. Bad experience with numerous bishops = lack of trust of all bishops.

Not that one shouldn't rise above this. It's just that empathy goes a long way.