A Race and Sexual Orientation at least similar?

[prisonchaplain]

This is a spin off the "Can someone be honest with me thread." Towards the end of the string Elpha asked why we can wax eloquent about racial equality and rights and inclusion, but not so for those with same sex attraction. I responded by wondering aloud how it is that sexual orientation is different from race, in terms of biology and culpability. What secular arguments can those of us who oppose same sex marriage offer? Also, how do we explain that race is pure genetics, but same sex attraction is, at best, a temptation?

Traveler asked what benefits same sex marriage offers to society. While I oppose it, I'm sure the advocates would say, "It makes official our right to the pursuit of our happiness, without infringing on the rights of others."

I do oppose same sex marriage. And at the end of the day, it's primarily because this country remains predominantly Christian, and overwhelmingly, we are worshipers of the God of Abraham. All three Abrahamic religions oppose same sex activity, much less marriage. Thus, as a society, we have no obligation to honor, approve, and legally codify that which a vast supermajority of us believe to be sinful.

These are my scattered thoughts thus far. Rae...added some thoughts...perhaps he'll want to repost them here. Okay...fire at will.

[rameumptom]

Dean Byrd gave a great talk on this during the 2004 FAIR Conference. He did a research study, based upon several previous studies (most done by pro-gay researchers), and found some interesting findings.

First, there is no evidence that homosexuality is genetic or ingrained from birth. Instead, the studies strongly suggest that homosexual tendencies come later, usually because a father figure or man has molested the child. For girls, it becomes a disgusting and terrible event that causes them to distrust men, so they develop a safe attraction toward women. For boys, they often see it as a way to be accepted by a father figure, and so end up believing that to be accepted by men means having sexual relations as part of the deal.

It wasn't too many decades ago that it was considered a psychological disorder. And with such evidence, perhaps it still should be. There are many instances of those with homosexual tendencies who have left that lifestyle and over time became completely heterosexual.

Homosexuality is basically accepted today, yet they still have one of the highest levels of suicide. Why? Because it is based upon wrong premises. They are justifying a lifestyle that goes against the grain of the Spirit, and endorses the evils that happened to them in the past.

Homosexuality can be unlearned, even as an alcoholic or sex addict can unlearn their tendencies (all of these, mind you, can take years of effort). Perhaps it is time to begin treating it as an emotional illness, and help them through it towards recovery.

Homosexual men average over 100 partners in their lifetime. Lesbians have an average of 50 partners. Health risks for Lesbians is greater than for heterosexual women. (Against Same Sex Marriage and Homosexual Health ).

Meanwhile, the average heterosexual male has 9 sex partners, and 4 for heterosexual women (Average man sleeps with 7 women - Sexual health- msnbc.com)

One study I read mentioned that in countries where gay marriage is legal, 96% of partners do not marry. The study suggests they are less interested in marriage than they are in being viewed as normal. So the legitimization of such relationships does not seem to suggest stability for society.

The Race Card

Race, OTOH, is genetic. With the exception of Michael Jackson, people do not easily change their race (and who knows which alien abduction turned Michael into what he is today). It is not a disease nor a tendency towards anything. It is definitely a matter of birth and ancestry. A person is not born black nor white because they were sexually or physically abused. Yes, years ago many mulattoes were born because black women were raped by white men, but that again, is not a normal thing, but a crime and a sin on the man's part.

I can easily hide my sexual orientation as I walk down the street. I cannot easily hide my Caucasian attributes as I do the same.

Homosexuals were not enslaved for centuries, brought over on cargo ships, and the dead tossed overboard. Homosexuals were not whipped, forced into labor, prevented from voting or being able to drink from a water fountain with me.

While they are prevented from some benefits given to standard traditional marriages, many states are now providing that to them in partnerships. Yet, there is still no evidence that homosexual marriages would give anything back to society. Centuries of traditional marriage shows that marriage with father and mother gives stability. Children raised without a good father end up suffering emotionally over it. Children raised without a mother, suffer emotionally over it. They do not get the balance.

While some would claim that many "traditional" marriages fail today, this fact does not justify officially extending marriage to other groups. It isn't a matter of replacing a Cadillac with a Buick. It isn't even a matter of replacing a Cadillac with a Yugo. It is a matter of preserving society.

If we are to accept homosexuality as normal, then we should also accept as normal all other forms of addiction. Alcoholism? No problem. Heroin addict? Fine. Bi-polar? Great. Lifelong NAMBLA member? Okay.

IOW, let's start encouraging our nation accept all forms of addiction and emotional struggles as normal.

[countrygirl66]

I am part indian, one of my daughters is part black, and one is part mexican. I don't think there is anything more offensive to me that when someone equates the issues of race with the issue of homosexuality. Race is something you are born with. I have teenagers and they have each have a friend or two that beleive they are gay or bisexual. When I see these kids in my home what I have noticed is some very unhappy kids. Not even old enough to be contemplating questions of sexuality. The reality is they have home problems, divorce, abuse, alcoholism, neglect etc. or they have so many things and almost no dicipline and structure. At a time in their lives when home should be a bedrock of security and love it is a slippery slope for most of them. This makes them easy picking for those who would do them evil.

I think all the media blitz about "we were born this way" is just that, satans media blitz. I do think some people have these feelings, some of my own family members do. My cousin (girl) was repeatedly raped as a teen by a neighbor boy. My cousing (girl) was severely neglected and abused by her stepmom and ignored by her dad. My cousin (boy) was severly starved for love by his dad and tortured by his stepmom. My point is that I love the dearly and it breaks my heart that they were such easy victims for those that told them they were gay. They weren't gay they were starved for love and people took advantage of that. I think heavenly father will give them some understanding for that. I do think that my cousins were so starved for love and have such low self esteem that it will be difficult for them to find a way out. I think there are many loving people that don't understand homosexuality so they are unsure what to think.

[prisonchaplain]

First, I'd recognize that at least a signficant percentage, if not a vast majority of homosexual behavior is learned, experimental, or a reaction to abuse at a young age. But, are we really ready to say that nobody is born with a genetic predisposition to same-sex attraction? My guess (I have no science background) is that, similar to alcoholism, there are some who are born such that should they choose to consume alcohol they will very likely become alcoholic. Likewise, there are some who, exposed to even a modicum of suggestive same-sex stimuli will quickly become "addicted" to it.

The other struggle, based on a report from Christianity Today, an evangelical magazine that is consistently opposed to gay marriage, suggesting that only 44% of same-sex attracted people, who undergo treatment to overcome their temptation, succeed at becoming celibate, and roughly 16% gain attraction to the opposite gender.

None of what I've said changes my opinion that same sex marriage should not be approved, but it does drive me to the understanding that gay Christians carry a heavy cross.

[anatess]

I agree PC. Homosexuality is more in the same league as Alcoholism than it is to Race. You can be born with the predisposition to alcoholism. Same as you can be born a cliptomaniac. Just like you can be born with homosexual tendencies.

Being born with alcoholic tendencies doesn't make you an alcoholic though - it is only until you imbibe to the point of addiction that you become an alcoholic. Just like being born with a predisposition to be attracted to the opposite sex doesn't make you gay. Engaging in sexual activities with the same gender makes you gay. And that's my understanding of the situation.

[Corey]

Gay marriage is not a civil rights issue, like race/ethnicity. I believe 99% of Christians would agree that:

1) We are individually endowed with different weeknesses/challenges
2) We have free agency to chose--even when extremely difficult to chose the right

Legality is a separate issue. The purpose of this land is to be a land of liberty for a free people.

[rameumptom]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

First, I'd recognize that at least a signficant percentage, if not a vast majority of homosexual behavior is learned, experimental, or a reaction to abuse at a young age. But, are we really ready to say that nobody is born with a genetic predisposition to same-sex attraction? My guess (I have no science background) is that, similar to alcoholism, there are some who are born such that should they choose to consume alcohol they will very likely become alcoholic. Likewise, there are some who, exposed to even a modicum of suggestive same-sex stimuli will quickly become "addicted" to it.

The other struggle, based on a report from Christianity Today, an evangelical magazine that is consistently opposed to gay marriage, suggesting that only 44% of same-sex attracted people, who undergo treatment to overcome their temptation, succeed at becoming celibate, and roughly 16% gain attraction to the opposite gender.

None of what I've said changes my opinion that same sex marriage should not be approved, but it does drive me to the understanding that gay Christians carry a heavy cross.

I agree with this concept. Some people may be predisposed to any number of addictions. What are the stats on a sex addict or heroin addict being able to overcome their temptation and succeed at abstaining? The numbers for that are very dismal, also.

That said, it does not mean we give up and normalize these things. We treat them as best we can. There are alcoholics that have not tasted a drop in decades, but they are still alcoholics. It doesn't make it easy for most of them, even after years of abstinence. But if they focus on the atonement of Jesus, the hope of a glorious resurrection, and great blessings for obedience, overcoming and enduring to the end, they can do it.

[Hemidakota]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

This is a spin off the "Can someone be honest with me thread." Towards the end of the string Elpha asked why we can wax eloquent about racial equality and rights and inclusion, but not so for those with same sex attraction. I responded by wondering aloud how it is that sexual orientation is different from race, in terms of biology and culpability. What secular arguments can those of us who oppose same sex marriage offer? Also, how do we explain that race is pure genetics, but same sex attraction is, at best, a temptation?

Traveler asked what benefits same sex marriage offers to society. While I oppose it, I'm sure the advocates would say, "It makes official our right to the pursuit of our happiness, without infringing on the rights of others."

I do oppose same sex marriage. And at the end of the day, it's primarily because this country remains predominantly Christian, and overwhelmingly, we are worshipers of the God of Abraham. All three Abrahamic religions oppose same sex activity, much less marriage. Thus, as a society, we have no obligation to honor, approve, and legally codify that which a vast supermajority of us believe to be sinful.

These are my scattered thoughts thus far. Rae...added some thoughts...perhaps he'll want to repost them here. Okay...fire at will.

Trying to argue the social immaturity of social/culture racism comparing it to an abominable sin of Homosexuality/Lesbian marriage, is eternal unproductive. Move on!

If GOD and His beloved Son said, no, then it is NO! There is no sustaining argument or allowance for this in any of the kingdoms shown by both Paul and Joseph Smith.

[Hemidakota]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

First, I'd recognize that at least a signficant percentage, if not a vast majority of homosexual behavior is learned, experimental, or a reaction to abuse at a young age. But, are we really ready to say that nobody is born with a genetic predisposition to same-sex attraction? My guess (I have no science background) is that, similar to alcoholism, there are some who are born such that should they choose to consume alcohol they will very likely become alcoholic. Likewise, there are some who, exposed to even a modicum of suggestive same-sex stimuli will quickly become "addicted" to it.

The other struggle, based on a report from Christianity Today, an evangelical magazine that is consistently opposed to gay marriage, suggesting that only 44% of same-sex attracted people, who undergo treatment to overcome their temptation, succeed at becoming celibate, and roughly 16% gain attraction to the opposite gender.

None of what I've said changes my opinion that same sex marriage should not be approved, but it does drive me to the understanding that gay Christians carry a heavy cross.

The problem when you counsel someone who tasted sexual sin, whether it be same or opposite gender, I will remind them it will be with them for life. It becomes a daily unpleasant task in fighting against the same physical temptations or festering thoughts in not being subject to it. We are never born with this degenerate thought processes but taught from birth, by poor parental skills or a fragile personality in dealing with culture values.

Again, GOD stated, it is wrong, doesn’t give anyone living child, the right to change an eternal commandment

[prisonchaplain]

Originally Posted by rameumptom

I agree with this concept. Some people may be predisposed to any number of addictions. What are the stats on a sex addict or heroin addict being able to overcome their temptation and succeed at abstaining? The numbers for that are very dismal, also.

These are rough estimates--but for drug and alchol addictions, success rates with medical rehab (30-days, counseling-based) is 15%. For faith-based programs like Teen Challenge (one-year, body-mind-spirit proram) the success rate is roughly 75% for men, 90% for women who graduate. All that to say, addictions of any type are tough, but sexual addictions are even tougher than chemical ones.

That said, it does not mean we give up and normalize these things. We treat them as best we can. There are alcoholics that have not tasted a drop in decades, but they are still alcoholics. It doesn't make it easy for most of them, even after years of abstinence. But if they focus on the atonement of Jesus, the hope of a glorious resurrection, and great blessings for obedience, overcoming and enduring to the end, they can do it.

I largely agree with this. For evangelicals, the burden is somewhat lessened, in that striving for celibacy is a legitimate end goal. Learn to tame the addiction, and give your energy to God's service. However, for LDS, my understanding is that that the ideal would be to strive for transformation to heterosexual satisfaction and an eternal marriage. God does miracles, and deliverance is certainly possible. But, as one gay inmate quipped to me, "You ever try 'learning' to be attracted to guys???"

Your bottom line is absolutely true though--as believers, we must strive for Jesus' highest standards for our lives. If the battle is difficult, the glory to God is all the greater. Failure is not an option. And we must not acquiesce by declaring failure "the new success."