California’s New Serious Threat to Marriage

[Bob_Blaylock]

Originally Posted by Maxel

I don't doubt that, if same-sex marriage is legalized, there will be many who try to tread this path. Unfortunately, I can see the general outcome of the business-related suits being in favor of the gay person/couple and not the business owner. However, the First Amendment would protect the religious institutions (including the Church and the temples) from harm as long as those in power continue to honor it. I think the thing we need to be worried about (in regards of losing our right to worship how we want) is an outright attack on the First Amendment- an abolishment of the First Amendment coupled with the legalization of same-sex marriage could lead to the disenfranchisement of the Church and the confiscation of the temples.

I don't think that's going to happen, though- not anytime soon, anyway.

Given how well those in power are currently honoring the Second and Tenth Amendments, I see little reason to assume that they will continue to honor the First in such a manner as to continue to allow us our vital freedom to believe and worship as we will.

It may well be worth pointing out that early in the history of our church, we were driven out of what, at the time, constituted the United States, because those in power refused even to honor the First Amendment with regard to our right to practice our religion.

And do not ever forget that we now have a President whose philosophies are far more in line with those of Karl Marx, than with those of the great men who founded this nation and who wrote our Constitution.

[Just_A_Guy]

Originally Posted by Maxel

I don't doubt that, if same-sex marriage is legalized, there will be many who try to tread this path. Unfortunately, I can see the general outcome of the business-related suits being in favor of the gay person/couple and not the business owner. However, the First Amendment would protect the religious institutions (including the Church and the temples) from harm as long as those in power continue to honor it. I think the thing we need to be worried about (in regards of losing our right to worship how we want) is an outright attack on the First Amendment- an abolishment of the First Amendment coupled with the legalization of same-sex marriage could lead to the disenfranchisement of the Church and the confiscation of the temples.

I don't think that's going to happen, though- not anytime soon, anyway.

I don't know, Maxel. The pattern in this country has not been to outright revoke rights; it has been to redefine them until they become meaningless while carefully maintaining the illusion that our rights remain unfettered. That's why we still believe we have the right to private property (even though, after Kelo, pretty much anyone with enough clout to sway your city council can take whatever they want from you via eminent domain), the right to speech (as long as you say the right things), the right to raise your own children (as long as the local school board approves of your course of instruction) . . . ad nauseum.

I don't fear action against the Church itself--at least, not on an Edmunds-Tucker scale (though I think more subtle actions like the loss of tax-exempt status; difficulty in obtaining visas for foreign missionaries; and loss of state recognition of temple marriage ceremonies are certainly on the horizon).

At least on the libertarian legal blogs I frequent, there's already a strong sentiment that while we can't do anything about churches, we can do a heck of a lot about those pesky church members. That's what I'm most concerned about. Satan won't turn on the Church institutionally until he has silenced the church members who might be able to defend its interests in the civic and political arenas.

I think we'll be seeing a two-pronged effort to stigmatize those who view gay sex as sinful, and indeed religious people in general: a political prong classifying such persons as "bigots" and a medical prong that identifies them as somehow unstable. This will set the stage for the re-education, if not the outright removal from home, of religious and/or conservative children. Meanwhile, we'll see more--much more--hysteria about the social damage inflicted by religion (religion is the cause of all wars!) and traditional family values (suicide! depression!), which will lead to broadened definitions of "hate speech" and toughened criminal penalties for those who openly condemn homosexual relationships.

Kids who aren't raised religious won't vote in favor of religion. And felons don't vote at all.

[its_Chet]

I wish it could be demonstrated in a court of law that the government does not have the right to turn my back yard into Soddom or Gomorrah. If the Soddomites want to play "dodge the burning sulphur falling from the sky", that's their business. But it's not fair that they get to infect society with what should be their private activities, thereby normalizing what is abominable, thereby polluting the earth, thereby incurring the wrath of a just God. That's bad enough, but getting the federal government involved means that the sane among us don't just lose in states where the oxymoron "gay marriage" has been institutionalized by the the government, but we lose all across the country. If a section of the country wants to sign on for "gay marriage" (as if such a thing actually could exist), that's one thing, but at least grant the rest of us that we can live in a "no gay marriage zone", so that when the fire and brimstone start falling, we don't have to call a roofing contractor.

If only we could get back to the days when you could just take an ax and cut down an idolator's grove when one popped up in your country, thereby sparing your nation from Divine wrath. Now, we have more or less the opposite happening. We have the government sanctioning those groves, giving them official protection. And the more those groves are normalized, the more our way of life is made a target for persecution. But there's something else.

Some of us have had the privilege of growing up in a time and place where the "gay lifestyle" was never talked about, unless two adolescents were having a gross out contest. We can remember a society that did not contantly preach the supposed virtue of carnal deviancy and perversion. We knew it was going on, but it was kept behind closed doors, where all carnal activity belongs, deviant or otherwise. But now, it's preached from the rooftops by the proverbial Babylon. It is discussed ad nausea, and then it is discussed yet more. It is a contant topic of discussion, and it is plastered all over the town square. How on earth can our children not be keenly aware of this abomination, try as hard as we might to shield them from it? And when celebration of it is so ubiquitous, how are we supposed to convince our children that it is what it truly is, deviant, sinful, unnatural and disgusting behavior? How are we supposed to teach our children the truth when the state controls our schools, when the media is in cahoots with it, and when our government takes sides against us in what ought to remain a religious issue?

Separation of Church and State ought to mean that the State avoids needlessly institutionalizing activity that is a threat to the Church.

Yes, the Constitution is on the line. Whether it's hanging by a thread yet or not I can't say, but we're headed there. If you haven't gotten a year's supply of food storage yet, consider this a wake up call. We're running out of time before this world becomes so wicked and perverse that it is fit for burning.

First we abhor, then we tolerate, then we accept, then we adhere, then we practice. Welcome to the strategy behind today's radical gay rights movement. They are recruiting our children, by normalizing their behavior and getting the government to enshrine it with special, extra-Constitutional considerations.

Someone once asked Joseph Smith who he was, to which he replied, "Noah came before the flood. I have come before the fire."

Time for fire insurance.

[Maxel]

Originally Posted by Bob_Blaylock

Given how well those in power are currently honoring the Second and Tenth Amendments, I see little reason to assume that they will continue to honor the First in such a manner as to continue to allow us our vital freedom to believe and worship as we will...

[Things that make a lot of sense.]

Originally Posted by Just_A_Guy

I don't know, Maxel...

[More things that make a lot of sense.]

I was trying to be optimistic Maxel today, and you guys had to go and ruin it with reality...

*Puts on his grumpy, worried hat. /*

On a serious note, though- what you guys say makes sense, as much as I wish it didn't. I just want everything to be happy and roses.

Guess I picked the wrong time to come to Earth if I wanted that. Makes me glad I have the Gospel.

[Just_A_Guy]

Originally Posted by Maxel

I just want everything to be happy and roses.

Guess I picked the wrong time to come to Earth if I wanted that.

Obligatory Lord of the Rings quote. (Made all the more ironic by the fact that the guy who played Gandalf is--you guessed it--gay.)

[Seanette]

Originally Posted by Maxel

On a serious note, though- what you guys say makes sense, as much as I wish it didn't. I just want everything to be happy and roses.

Don't we all? I certainly do, but that's not how a very telestial world is, sorry to say.

Guess I picked the wrong time to come to Earth if I wanted that. Makes me glad I have the Gospel.

Amen to being glad to have the Gospel. I don't think we got much say in when to come to Earth, or in what circumstances, though.

[Huck_Finn]

I have a gay nephew. He is a real nice person and not a sodomite. He and his husband (they married 2004 and be together since 1988) are always be welcome in my house. I guess, that it hasn't changed our society that gay men and lesbian women can get married, but it made us more tolerant.
I think, if thy want to legalize gay marriage one day, it would be good for a society. But a society would not change to this into a sodomite path.

[its_Chet]

Originally Posted by Huck_Finn

I have a gay nephew. He is a real nice person and not a sodomite. He and his husband (they married 2004 and be together since 1988) are always be welcome in my house. I guess, that it hasn't changed our society that gay men and lesbian women can get married, but it made us more tolerant.
I think, if thy want to legalize gay marriage one day, it would be good for a society. But a society would not change to this into a sodomite path.

Methinks you have an unconventional definition for the word "sodomite". Simply put, sodomite = gay (at least male anyway). My skin's already crawling at this point, so I'm not going to expound.

There are multiple reasons why that behavior is bad for society, but I'll start with the most important. And as far as that goes, I'll start with an analogy.

If you leave scraps of food on your kitchen floor long enough, eventually you will get bugs in the house.

And now for a historical perspective.

The word "sodomite" comes from the city of Sodom, one of two cities that in ancient times was destroyed by God for, among other things, carnally deviant behavior that was widely practiced by their inhabitants. Fire and brimstone (sulphur) rained down on these cities, an act of God. While some may consider this an act of savagery on God's part, I consider it an act of mercy. Mercy shown towards the children of Abraham. He removed a poisonous influence from Abraham's midst, thus improving His posterity's chances of successfully living the Gospel, and thereby being saved.

These days, God is a bit more subtle, but He has made it clear to anyone who is watching and listening what He thinks of the refusal to obey His commandments regarding the law of chastity. Terminal diseases are sometimes transmitted in the act of fornication. They are much more often transmitted in the act of gay..... well, you know. This is what God does these days instead of fire and brimstone. So far at least. It doesn't look like most people are paying attention though. He's already trying more drastic measures to alert mankind to the fact that it needs to repent. The global economy is a wreck and continues to get worse. Natural disasters are increasing in frequency and severity. The sons of Ishmael are plaguing the whole earth with war and violence. The list goes on.

We have been given all the wake up calls we could reasonably need, and yet our collective behavior only gets worse. The entertainment industry continues to churn out ever more shocking and disgusting obscenity, which is a large part of the reason we're in the mess we're already in. It's about to get a whole lot worse, and the behavior that's brought us this low is only increasing.

I have no doubt your nephew is a nice person. I have had friends who were gay, and I genuinely enjoyed talking to them. But the reality is that being a practicing gay person is a sin, and when society is as over run with that sort of thing as it is now, the wrath of God falls on the earth, on the just and the unjust alike. We are all paying the price for this. If this world continues to look the other way as carnal deviancy takes root, the efforts God will make to uproot it will become more drastic. One way or another, this earth will be purged of that behavior when the Savior returns. Those among us who recognize it as the blight upon mankind that it is will take every measure we legally can to protect our communities from such pollution, and consequently, the resulting and necessary cleansing that will come later.

One way is to defend the sanctity of marriage. Marriage is a religious institution that belongs to God. It does not belong to the government, and the government has no right to redefine it to include something that it never has and never should. Marriage is the union of man and woman for the purpose of raising a family. It is not merely a romantic partnership between any twosome. That is how the world sees it. The world is committing suicide as we speak. The world is foolish. The world needs to read the proclamation on the family.

Those who love God more than the bohemian and secularist political beliefs that are so increasingly popular in this current society will defend marriage. We insist that it not be redefined and desecrated by a government that is supposed to represent us. If the institution of marriage is to be desecrated, and the wrath of God to be poured out without measure, it will not happen with my approval, and hopefully, I will be spared most of the punishment that follows that approval when it is given.

I still believe in treating gay people with respect and kindness. But it doesn't mean I have to rubber stamp their lifestyles. It doesn't mean I have to rewrite the Gospel to endorse abomination. It doesn't mean I have to sell my soul for the love of this world. I'd rather be hated by this world and approved by God. And so I will use my civic rights to fight any attempt to pervert or silence the will of God.

[FunkyTown]

Originally Posted by its_Chet

Methinks you have an unconventional definition for the word "sodomite". Simply put, sodomite = gay (at least male anyway). My skin's already crawling at this point, so I'm not going to expound.

There are multiple reasons why that behavior is bad for society, but I'll start with the most important. And as far as that goes, I'll start with an analogy.

If you leave scraps of food on your kitchen floor long enough, eventually you will get bugs in the house.

And now for a historical perspective.

The word "sodomite" comes from the city of Sodom, one of two cities that in ancient times was destroyed by God for, among other things, carnally deviant behavior that was widely practiced by their inhabitants. Fire and brimstone (sulphur) rained down on these cities, an act of God. While some may consider this an act of savagery on God's part, I consider it an act of mercy. Mercy shown towards the children of Abraham. He removed a poisonous influence from Abraham's midst, thus improving His posterity's chances of successfully living the Gospel, and thereby being saved.

Hi Chet,

I should point out that the crime of Sodom was not that men slept with other men. If that were the case, then Athens would have been burned along with Sodom and Gomorrah.

While we don't necessarily know the crimes of Gomorrah, we know that the men of Sodom tried to rape angels. That's a bit worse than being gay and I think people need to recognize that.

I believe that a lot of people are far more hateful towards homosexuality(Which is a sin) than towards other sin simply because it's one they find aesthetically displeasing and because it's a sin that affects only a small percentage of the world.

If we're going to bring up the wording 'Abomination' in Leviticus, I'd also like to point out that Leviticus also says:

(Lev. 11:10-12) Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

Clams, oysters, crabs, lobsters, and shrimp are abominations.

Thankfully, Jesus told us we could have them, because it is not what goes in to a mouth that makes a man unclean, but what comes out.

Personally, I think all we should do is get the government out of the marriage market, make certain our views are known and stay out of other people's business. Our only job is to preach the gospel, not pass laws forcing other people to live it. That's not God's plan.

[Hemidakota]

Correcting some bad terms here: Gay = carefree, happy, or bright and showy happy person. Gay person is not a practicing homosexual. A practicing Homosexual is a considered by religionists a Sodomite.