Scouting Question

[Backroads]

Dash, you are speaking of wards with poor communication between all parties. If a ward were functioning properly, the bishop and his counselors and the whole Scouting committee would be able to agree on the policy.

To tie this with the OP's post, let's say the Bishop does in fact want uniforms to be encouraged. Great. Then the ideas I and others' posted, including those of speaking to the BSA council for ideas, would apply.

You began this whole conversation with the assumption the Bishop was vehemently against uniforms.

[dash77]

backroads:

I have two comments. Are there really any wards that are not perfectly functional (they all are dysfunction in some way). Second, I ahve been at wards where the bishop has been vehemently against uniforms or the entire Scouting program. I have been in wards where the Bishop has been vehemently supportive of uniforms or the entire Scouting program. My point is, its the Bishop's decision and he can be completely opposed to a Scout program and uniforms.

Originally Posted by Backroads

Dash, you are speaking of wards with poor communication between all parties. If a ward were functioning properly, the bishop and his counselors and the whole Scouting committee would be able to agree on the policy.

To tie this with the OP's post, let's say the Bishop does in fact want uniforms to be encouraged. Great. Then the ideas I and others' posted, including those of speaking to the BSA council for ideas, would apply.

You began this whole conversation with the assumption the Bishop was vehemently against uniforms.

[Backroads]

Originally Posted by dash77

backroads:

I have two comments. Are there really any wards that are not perfectly functional (they all are dysfunction in some way). Second, I ahve been at wards where the bishop has been vehemently against uniforms or the entire Scouting program. I have been in wards where the Bishop has been vehemently supportive of uniforms or the entire Scouting program. My point is, its the Bishop's decision and he can be completely opposed to a Scout program and uniforms.

You spoke of the bishop being inspired. However, the Church expects each and every ward to have a Scouting program. The Bishop might be against Scouting, but it's hard for him to get out of it. If he's still bitter about it, is it fair to everyone else that he makes decisions for no other reason than he doesn't like it?

I have seen bishops try to punish boys who choose to participate in a Scout unit outside of the church's. I imagine you would tell me the bishop was "inspired" to stop them.

[Wingnut]

Originally Posted by dash77

Wingnut:

You are right that there are people who tell others more than the Bishop and I have never understood that. These are people who then are the ones most likely to complain that the Bishop does not know what he is doing (planting seeds of apostasy). How can a Bishop even know if such people are not talking to him? Bishops are not perfect – but most listen – the key is to realize that the Bishop has to make decisions on information that few ward members can know.

Or they are the ones who understand that they have needs that can be met without going to the bishop and that to do so would be an unnecessary burden on the bishop. I'm not speaking of worthiness issues -- I agree that the bishop typically knows more about those as a whole than any other one person in the ward. Generally speaking, though, a Relief Society president and/or Elders Quorum president actually know a lot more details about family situations than a bishop does.

[dash77]

Wingnut:

You point is a very good one -- Bishop's should not be burdened by trivial issues. But at the same time, Bishop's (or counselors) do need to know what ward members are thinking because it can be inspiration.

Backrounds:

Personally, I would never suggest a Bishop is "punishing" someone. With that said, Bishop's are still human being can make honest human errors. If its an error that seems to have serious consequences, there are ways to handle this. One is to go through the Stake High Council represenative or to talk to a member of the Stake YM's president regarding the Scouting aspects of the ward. Not a murming about a Bishop but a "what is the Stake vision toward Scouting" and using that as a medium to outline concerns -- going with an attitude that your view of concerns might be the root of a problem. One can always talk to a member of the Stake Presidency.

[MarginOfError]

Okay, let's start with a little organizational clarification on how troops operate within the LDS Church.

All scouting units belong to a chartered organization. When the chartered organization is an LDS ward, the bishop is the head of the chartered organization. He may act as the chartered organization's representative, or appoint someone else to do so. Under his direction, a troop committee is formed.

When things work the way they are designed to, the troop committee makes recommendations to the head of the charter representative about who to ask to join the committee and act as scoutmasters (the terms scoutmasters applies to both the scoutmaster and assistant scoutmasters). The head of the charter organization has the authority to reverse any decision made by the committee or scoutmasters so long as that decision doesn't negate the terms of the charter.

Once the committee is formed, decisions are supposed to be made at the committee level. If a decision can't be resolved at the committee level, appeals are made to the bishop. If that sounds weird to you, you should consider the fact that decisions in the ward ought to be made at the quorum/auxiliary level, unless those decisions affect several auxiliaries. In that case, the decision is supposed to be made by the ward council under the direction of the bishop. The bishop's role is not to make all of the decisions, but to mediate the process in which decisions are made. When necessary, he may make decisions upon appeal.

Show me a ward where all decisions start and end with a bishop, and I'll show you a ward that has weak leadership and the members are stunted in the spiritual development.

Show me a ward where the bishop teaches the quorum/auxiliary presidencies to make as many decisions as possible and I'll show you a ward that is thriving.

In that aspect, dash is correct; the bishop can decide that it is okay for the boys not to wear uniforms.

If a bishop makes such a decision, however, he should do one of two things. A) Get trained* or scrap the charter altogether.

The thing about the uniform is that it has a huge effect on the attitude of the troop. Troops that encourage the uniform perform and function, on average, better than troops that do not. Often, troops that don't encourage the uniform have leaders that haven't bothered to take the training that is expected/required.

The tone, however, has to be set by the leaders. If all of your scoutmasters and committee members show up wearing uniforms, you'll be surprised how quickly the boys will start putting theirs on. On the other hand, if the leaders won't wear their uniforms because the look dorky, the boys won't wear theirs either.

If the OP wonders why the troop isn't wearing the uniforms, he's absolutely correct that the first place to bring it up is committee meeting. If the committee members state that they don't wear the uniform for any reason other than 'the bishop said we shouldn't,' then you should point out what the BSA's training has to say about wearing uniforms. If they continue to resist, it might be time to consider finding another troop for your kid.

My guess is that in this situation (and in most similar situations), the problem is a lack of training. the Church has a tendency to call leaders to the troops, and rather than encourage them to get trained by the BSA, they just let them work. Afterall, whom the Lord calls, he qualifies. I've known far more LDS scout leaders (scoutmasters and committee members) who don't/won't get trained than I've known to get all the training. The troops with trained leaders are far more effective and far more committed to the program. If you have leaders in your troop who refuse to get trained, get new leaders.


So what should you do if you have a young man who refuses to participate in scouting? Find him another activity. One of the flaws of Church-based scouting is that it assumes the program is a one-size fits all program. Every young man is a member of his ward's troop. The problem is that scouting isn't for everyone. There are enough youth programs in the world that if a boy doesn't want to participate in scouting, a suitable alternative can be found to expand his skills and confidence. Young men and ward leaders should help him find and alternative and encourage him to succeed in it.




* Including Youth Protection, Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills, Scoutmaster Specific Training, This is Scouting, and the Troop Committee Challenge.

[embleau]

Thank you Marginorerror!! When I was called to serve on the committee, I jumped full in and did all the training and took it seriously. Being in a non-LDS Boy Scout troop growing up, the LDS-BSA structure and mentality is semi-foreign to me.

I agree with the Uniform statement you made. it gives the child pride. When the children see the leaders taking pride in the uniform and what it stands for they will too.

We had our last Committee meeting before the summer break (do all LDS troops/packs break over summer?) But before we start again in the fall, I'll make sure to let the committee chair knwo that i would like to talk and say something at the first committee meeting before we start again, asking for opinions and support on the uniforms. Test the waters to see why it's so relaxed in our wards (our pack is combined 2 wards)

[dash77]

MOE:

Your post is very well written and I agree with most of it. In the wards I’ve been at related to YM –and there have been many I have been likewise in many leadership positions, the Bishop signs off as the head of the charter.

The only area I would differing is in your view that all decisions end and begin with the Bishop is poor leadership (but I realize I did not explain this very well). I see such wards as having a high level and effective communication and would say outstanding leadership. This does not mean every single decision is made by the Bishop. But it does mean the Bishop has understanding of all decisions. I know Bishops who have led ward council that has rich conversation, where everyone has a voice - -sometimes conflicting views – and the bishop at the end makes a final decision. Such Bishops usually meets once a month with the RS President, EQp, HPGL, PP, etc. and those meetings are completely collaborative between the Bishop, the person, and the Spirit.

But at the end of the day, when there are conflicting views – such as if scouts should wear uniforms, if scouts should even be held, if there is a two pronged YM program for YM who like scouting and those who do not – it is the Bishop who makes the final decision NOT the Scout master, ward scout committee of the community ward council.

[MarginOfError]

Originally Posted by embleau

Thank you Marginorerror!! When I was called to serve on the committee, I jumped full in and did all the training and took it seriously. Being in a non-LDS Boy Scout troop growing up, the LDS-BSA structure and mentality is semi-foreign to me.

It's foreign to me as well. You should be warned that when I talk about Church-based scouting, it's usually critical. I have no love for the way scouting operates in the Church and usually refuse to have anything to do with it. The troop in which I volunteer is sponsored by an Episcopalian church.

[MarginOfError]

Originally Posted by dash77

MOE:

Your post is very well written and I agree with most of it. In the wards I’ve been at related to YM –and there have been many I have been likewise in many leadership positions, the Bishop signs off as the head of the charter.

The only area I would differing is in your view that all decisions end and begin with the Bishop is poor leadership (but I realize I did not explain this very well). I see such wards as having a high level and effective communication and would say outstanding leadership. This does not mean every single decision is made by the Bishop. But it does mean the Bishop has understanding of all decisions. I know Bishops who have led ward council that has rich conversation, where everyone has a voice - -sometimes conflicting views – and the bishop at the end makes a final decision. Such Bishops usually meets once a month with the RS President, EQp, HPGL, PP, etc. and those meetings are completely collaborative between the Bishop, the person, and the Spirit.

But at the end of the day, when there are conflicting views – such as if scouts should wear uniforms, if scouts should even be held, if there is a two pronged YM program for YM who like scouting and those who do not – it is the Bishop who makes the final decision NOT the Scout master, ward scout committee of the community ward council.

The thing is, dash, I have no problem with decisions ending with the bishop when necessary. I do have problems when decisions have to begin with the bishop as well. If there's a matter of concern in the troop, the first thing that should happen is the scoutmasters and committee members should consult, and if they feel they need to involve the bishop, make their recommendation to him. A bishop who has to be kept informed of the decision making process every step of the way is not a leader--he's a micromanager.