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11-15-2005, 01:44 PM
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InActiveTx 
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11-15-2005, 01:55 PM
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Don't you know that people often do what other people have done, whether or not they know or knew about those other people? Haven't you ever used some words from the scriptures to describe some of what you have seen people do? People have pretty much done the same things throughout time, some good, some bad, and some I'm not sure about yet, and when I see people in a scenario today which also occured in the past, I usually use the best words I can think of to describe those people or their scenario. Or in other words, there is nothing new under the sun, as far as people are concerned, and we all use the best words we can think of to describe what we see. And btw, it helps to realize that the scriptures reveal the history of some people, and as I said, people today have done a lot of things that other people have done before.
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11-15-2005, 01:57 PM
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Here is a good link to a discussion on horses in Book of Mormon times.
http://www.ldsmag.com/bookofmormon/051114horses.html
__________________
"If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end in doubts; but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties." Sir Francis Bacon
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11-15-2005, 02:55 PM
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Well Paul, you have not answered me about our last conversation, so when you answer me what i answered to you , then we'll talk, and your äcerted view"towards the BoM, and then such way of thinking would be vindicated
And as to Inactivetx: Hey, how many quotes doesnt have the own OT about Jesus? How many verses didnt Jesus quoted? Were there of him or for him? How many MANY concepts of christianism are found within judaism? Did Christians copied? How many "greek philosophy"is not there WITHIN Christianity? A lot may i say... but that doesnt mean christians copied or took such thoughts from pagans, but that such knowleadge was in the world since it began. A great opportunity for people to corrupt or exalt such doctrines. If not viewed this way, then the very presence of all christian concepts within early pagan sources lead us to believe that even theJEWS took principles out of pagans...LOL. And as to quotes, again, isnt naive of you to ask that such expression of (we are better than our brothers) is of NT times? Dont you believe that such situation with the SAME response would have been early contemplated? Was Jesus the only intelligent person to respond such basic answer? Wow, then the jews were as stupid as a rock... Regards
__________________
He sealeth up the hand of every man; that all men may know his work. (Job 37:7) "Our religion is between us and our God". Joseph Smith "In our searching for truth, nothing can be consedered as obvious". John L. Sorenson. "Read not to contradict". Francis Bacon "Water, fire, light, truth and God are the same thing.Truth is Mormonism."Joseph smith "Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one" Nephi
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11-15-2005, 09:22 PM
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11-15-2005, 09:26 PM
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Hey Serg The last I looked I posted last under the previous topic. Although it doesn't cover all of your point it is a starting point. I am working on the rest of my response to your post. Paul
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11-15-2005, 09:52 PM
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Lehi and Saraih initially had four sons namely Laman, Lemuel, Sam, and Nephi when they left Jerusalem (1N 2:5) no mention of daughters at this time. Two additional sons were born in the wilderness namely Jacob and Joseph (1N 18:7). Zoram, the servant of Laban comes with them (1N 4:31-37). Ishmael and his wife join them with at least 5 daughters and 2 sons. No mention of Jacob, Joseph and two sons of Ishmael having wives, but let’s assume they did take some of the daughters of the other five to start their families. How many people would there be in 40 years assuming twins are born each year? Laman, Lemuel, Sam, Nephi, Zoram and their wives could have had up to 160 children by the time the oldest children are 16. Then with Jacob, Joseph, and two sons of Ishmael now married, four new couples can begin having children each of the following years. Mathematically there would then be 1500 or more people inhabiting this land by the end of the 30th year. The BOM text throughout these years does not suggest any other children of Lehi or Ishmael except the reference to “my sisters” (2N 5:6). We don’t know how many sisters there were or whom they married but even under the best of conditions (twins each year) there could not have been over 3000 people in this 40 year period. If one follows the BOM story line we see the division between the Lamanites and Nephites (2N 5:6) where the Nephites, the larger group decided to move. The Nephites made swords, built buildings, even a temple, like Solomon’s temple. Some pretty awesome accomplishments for such a small number of people. Some other interesting questions can be garnered from this section of the BOM (2N 5:5-34). 1). Solomon’s temple took a workforce of 30,000 laborers, 150,000 stonemasons and haulers, and 3,300 supervisors- a total of seven (7) years nonstop work to complete the temple (1 Kings 6:9-38). In the BOM we have an approximate workforce of 200 to 300 able-bodied men and maybe some older children building many buildings and a temple “after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things... and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine” all within a 10-12 year period. 2). Solomon’s temple was 90 feet long, 30 feet wide and 45 feet tall. The portico in front of the temple extended the width of the temple (30 feet) and was 15 feet in front of the temple. Solomon’s temple originally had another building around the outside consisting of small side rooms where the priests who took care of the temple stayed. Based on this information and the 2N 5:16 statement about a temple similar to Solomon’s temple one must ask “where is any archeological evidence that depicts a temple this big?” All the archeological ruins in Central America depict a much smaller buildings on top of pyramids. This does not seem to agree with the BOM description of the temple built like Solomon’s temple. 3). 2N 5:16 contradicts what was just stated, in the previous verse, in that “it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land” whereas verse 15 states that Nephi “did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance” . None of the remaining archeological ruins indicate construction with metal let alone precious metals such as gold and silver. 4). If one studies the information presented by the archeologists who have examined these Central and South American ruins, they will find the following facts: a) They had no draft animals or wheeled vehicles which is contrary to what the BOM states in A 18:9 and 20:6; 3N 3:22 and 21:14. Any reference to horses would be contrary to archeological facts obtained from the ruins. The BOM, however, indicates “their land is full of horses” E 1:21.  Writings from the Mayan civilization was made on stone slabs or pillars; lintels and stairways; and on folded sheets of fibrous paper made from the inner bark of wild fig trees. Many exist today. The Aztecs used pictographic writings (conveying messages by drawing pictures). These pictorial writings were typically recorded on paper or animal hides. Many of these writings called codices are in existence today. The Inca’s probably did have some writings; however, archeologists have not found any to date. Information about the Inca’s came from the oral tradition passed from one generation to the next. There is very little evidence, if any, that indicates writings on metal plates as the BOM describes.c) The common people of these civilizations probably lived in dwellings that were made of adobe or palm-thatched huts as seen today among their descendants. The BOM states that the Nephites “became exceedingly expert in working of cement; therefore they did build houses of cement in which they did dwell” H3:7, 9 and 11. The word cement is derived from the Old French language which was not developed until the 6th or 7th century A.D. Again it must be asked how a French word gets into a work allegedly completed no later than 421 A.D. Furthermore, there is no archeological evidence that backs up the use of cement in the pre-Columbian Americas. Cement is defined as a finely ground powder that when mixed with water sets and hardens into a solid mass. The ancient Roman civilization made cement from lime and volcanic ash and used it extensively in building their empire. In 1824 a British engineer, by the name of Joseph Aspdin, patented portland cement in which limestone and clay are the two most common raw materials. These ingredients are crushed and ground into fine powder, blended to the desired proportions and heated in a kiln at very high temperatures. It is also interesting to note that the patent was issued in 1824 just a few short years before JS began writing the BOM. Many newspapers carried the news about this new useful product. A likely possibility is that JS during this time period may have incorporated it into the BOM. One must wonder if that is why this word shows up in the BOM. d) The religion of these Indian civilizations was polytheistic (many gods) not just one God as we find in the Judeo/Christian beliefs. The following is a brief summary of these Indian religious systems: Not far from the temple pyramid stood a much smaller building which some describe as a house of idols, diabolism, serpents, and having many tools needed for carving the bodies of the sacrificial victims. The Aztecs believed in a system of 13 heavens and 9 underworlds which had over 900 gods. They had gods for commerce and industry; gods for merchant-adventurers; gods for imperial armies; gods for potters, basket weavers, mat makers; gods of agriculture; gods of fisherman; gods of earth, air, fire, and water; gods of mountains, volcanoes; creator gods; gods of medicine; and gods for flowers which strange people loved. The Mayan religious system was similar to the Aztecs in that they had a pantheon of nature gods and other duties. Some of these included: gods of abundance; rain gods; gods for travelers; medicine gods; gods of the chase; gods for fisherman; gods of maize, food plants, cocoa. Principally, the Mayans had 13 major gods and a host of minor gods. The major gods included: the death god, weather god, sky deity, moon god, maize god, war god, merchants god, sun god, serpent deity, water goddess, god with ornamented nose, old black god, and the end of the year god. The Mayans had numerous idols. There was not an animal or reptile that didn’t have an image for it which was worshipped as a god or goddess. Additionally torture and human sacrifice were a fundamental part of the Mayan religious rituals. The drawing of human blood was thought to nourish the gods and was thus necessary to achieve contact with them. The Inca religion also had multiple gods that they worshipped. Ancestor worship was an important feature of the Inca system. Each tribe or clan would have mummies of the kinsfolk to which were offered vases, clothes, plumes and the like. They had gods of the ocean, the earth, fish, harvests, and the moon. The Inca religion combined features of animism, fetishism and worship of nature gods. e) The final point to be drawn from the studies made of these Native American peoples was the time frame when these civilizations existed: Aztecs settled on Lake Tezcuco which later became the capital of the empire somewhere between 1140 and 1327 A.D. They flourished until the 15th and16th century A.D. until defeated by the Spanish. The earliest known period of the Mayan civilization was approximately 260 A.D. when they began building temples and pyramids. They were overtaken by the Spanish and disease by approximately 1540 A.D. The Inca civilization started to build their empire, as early as 1438 A.D., and within 100 years had gained control of 12,000,000 people. Many BOM believers point to these great civilizations as evidence that there was a great Nephite civilization. However, the timeline for each civilization as determined by archeologists does not fit with the BOM narrative and cannot be the supporting evidence for the BOM. In fact both LDS and RLDS authorities have indicated that there is very little archeological evidence that corroborates the BOM. So as you can see there are other things that indicate there is some problems with what the BOM says.
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11-15-2005, 10:04 PM
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The original plates didn't say "and it came to pass." They said something else and JS translated it as "and it came to pass." Whatever the plates originally said in this case, JS translated as "adieu." Why does it have to be any more complicated than that? I know one of the witnesses to the translation reports that JS would see words appear and then would read them off, but JS doesn't say that. Even if that is the way it worked some of the time, that doesn't have to be the only way it worked. JS's translation and revelation processed certainly evolved over time.
__________________
There is nothing more pathetic than the anti anti-mormon Colonel Louis/Lewis Tucker
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11-15-2005, 11:10 PM
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D&C 123: 13 13 Therefore, that we should waste and wear out our lives in bringing to light all the hidden things of darkness, wherein we know them; and they are truly manifest from heaven—
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