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11-14-2005, 06:14 PM
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Hi! Hope someone can help.
I am an inactive member and am trying to gain a testimony. So, I have taken up Hinkley's challenge to read the BoM and everything is going smoothly until I hit a speed bump and I find whatever small testimony I was gaining being whisked away in an instant - leaving a bad taste in my month. Here is an example: Alma 38:13-14: "Do not pray as the Zoramites do, for ye have seen that they pray to heard of men, and to be praised for thier wisdom. Do not say: O God, I thank thee that we are better than our brethren..." Hello?! Didn't Jesus say this exact thing to the Pharasees 100 year years later??? in Luke 18:11 (btw the footnotes direct you to Luke 18:13)? So, was Jesus quoting Alma? or was Alma quoted Jesus 100 years in the past? It's these little moments of deja vous in the BoM that make me go hmmmm. And don't get me started on the book of Ether. Last time I read that book, I put away the Book of Mormon for months! So am I nervous about reading it again. Is there a good reason why the BoM relies so heavily in its narrative on the Old/New Testament stories? I truly want a testimony of the BoM. I have prayed, and am obviously reading and occassional get the warm feeling of the spirit like w/ Alma 32 or other doctrinal passages, but then it is torn to shreads over things like this. Can anyone help me? TIA - InactiveTx 
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11-14-2005, 06:53 PM
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If the Book of Mormon is true, would it not teach the same teachings that the Bible teaches? We pretty much accept the Bible as true.
God teaches his prophets the same principles in all ages. He taught Isaiah and I am sure he taught the prophets in the Book of Mormon and our latter day prophets the same exact principles. I don't think he does alot of changing his language between the prophets or the way he teaches. The prophets may put what he teaches in their own language, so the people can understand it that they are teaching, but I am sure that Jesus Christ teaches the same basic principles to each of his prophets in their time. And if this is the true gospel, would we not expect it to basically be the same gospel as it was in each of these times? How many times does Christ say (and I am paraphrasing) I am the same yesterday, today, and forever. He has taught that over and over... If he changed or ceased to teach the same principles, he would cease to be God and we would not be here... Because without God, we would not be here either..... It is not a stumbling block for me, but a testimony of its truth....
__________________
The ornament of a house is the friends who frequent it. Ralph Waldo Emerson
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11-15-2005, 08:20 AM
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[quote]
If the Book of Mormon is true, would it not teach the same teachings that the Bible teaches? We pretty much accept the Bible as true. God teaches his prophets the same principles in all ages. He taught Isaiah and I am sure he taught the prophets in the Book of Mormon and our latter day prophets the same exact principles. I don't think he does alot of changing his language between the prophets or the way he teaches. The prophets may put what he teaches in their own language, so the people can understand it that they are teaching, but I am sure that Jesus Christ teaches the same basic principles to each of his prophets in their time. And if this is the true gospel, would we not expect it to basically be the same gospel as it was in each of these times? How many times does Christ say (and I am paraphrasing) I am the same yesterday, today, and forever. He has taught that over and over... If he changed or ceased to teach the same principles, he would cease to be God and we would not be here... Because without God, we would not be here either..... It is not a stumbling block for me, but a testimony of its truth.... I have also studied the BOM thouroughly and it is interesting how it has many places where it quotes New Testament material a long time before the time it was written. How is this possible? Maybe somebody borrowed the words from the Bible (in the 1820's) and added them to the BOM text to make it sound Biblical. HMMMM One might say that it was common Hebrew people saying Hebrew things. I can agree partially to this statement, in that, “Hebrew” people from the Old Testament period would generally have “quotes and cultural expressions” from the Old Testament portion of the Bible. In this particular case, the alleged Nephite peoples were from a period of time before 600 B.C. This is where I have to draw the line at though because many parts of the BOM have direct quotes from parts of the OT as well as the NT that the alleged descendants of Lehi would not have access to. So for this review we will look for things that don’t fit in that before 600 B.C. period. Here are a few of them I have found: 1 Nephi 4:26 -- the term “brethren of the church…” is not an Old Testament term used in ancient Judea. The word “church” is a New Testament term. 1 Nephi 15:18 and 1 Nephi 22:9-11 -- Nephi was restating the promise made to Abraham quoting directly “In thy seed shall all kindreds of the earth be blessed”. The interesting part here is that the exact word combination found in these BOM passages is only found in Acts 3:25. The word “kindreds” is not found in the OT passages (Genesis 12:3, 18:18, 22:18, 26:4 and 28:14). Only Acts 3:25 uses this word. Just in case you say that Nephi was quoting a commonly used OT word. The word “kindreds” is only found in 1 Chronicles 16:28, Psalms 22:27, and Psalms 96:7. So this can’t be the case. HOW DOES SOMEONE IN OLD TESTAMENT TIME FRAME COME UP WITH A WORD FOR WORD NEW TESTAMENT PHRASE? 1 Nephi 22:17-18 uses the word combination of “blood and fire and vapor of smoke must come”. The context of the BOM passage is about the “last day” judgment in which these wonders will all occur. The interesting part here is that the earliest Biblical reference of these wonders together, as a word combination, is in Joel 2:30. Some commentators assign the Book of Joel to the period after the Babylonian Exile, both because Chapter 3 assumes the dispersal of the Jews among other nations, and because the eschatology of Joel presupposes a later period of Jewish theology. But other commentators place Joel before the Babylonian Exile. Neither of these hypotheses concerning Joel can claim to possess convincing proof. Finally, this word combination also occurs in the New Testament passages of Acts 2:19 and 1 Corinthians 3:15. The word “vapor” is only used in Acts 2:19 in combination with the other words “blood, fire and smoke”. AGAIN HOW DOES SOMEONE IN OLD TESTAMENT TIME FRAME COME UP WITH A NEW TESTAMENT WORD COMBINATION OR A POST-EXILIC PROPHETS WRITINGS IF THAT WAS WHEN JOEL WAS WRITTEN? The Deuteronomy 18:15-19 passage where Moses stated that “a prophet being raised up by God”. In 1 Nephi 22:20 we find the same prophecy. Which from first glance would appear that Nephi was quoting from the Deuteronomy passage, HOWEVER if you read the verse carefully Nephi is actually stating the prophecy word for word as it reads in Act 3:22-23. HOW DOES SOMEONE SUPPOSEDLY WRITING 600 OR MORE YEARS BEFORE THE WRITING OF THE BOOK OF ACTS COME UP WITH THE SAME WORDS? In 2 Nephi 2:4-10 clearly describes the Bibles message of “salvation is free”.... “by the law no flesh is justified”.... When one looks up the word combination of law, flesh and justified in the KJV they will only find that word combination in Romans 3:20. How does Nephi come up with a NT sentence in an OT period? In 2 Nephi 2:26 the BOM uses the word “Messiah” which in the Old Testament occurs in the Book of Daniel (Daniel 9:25-26). The Book of Daniel as we know was written during the Babylonian captivity. The Israelites started looking earnestly for the Messiah after the Babylonian captivity. SO HOW IS IT THAT THE BOM DESCRIBES THE DESIRE FOR A MESSIAH SO FAR IN ADVANCE OF WHERE THE BIBLE PLACES IT? In 2 Nephi 25:19 the angel names the Messiah as “Jesus Christ the Son of God”. It is interesting that the first mention of the name Jesus, in the Bible, was in the messages to Mary and Joseph from the Angel Gabriel. Additionally the word Christ, which means anointed one, was not attached to Jesus until later in the New Testament plus it is a Greek word. The Greek language wasn’t developed yet in 600 BC. In 2 Nephi 25:23-27 takes the Biblical truth of “we know that it is by grace that we are saved” Again Nephi quotes a NT concept and sentence structure only found in Ephesians 2:8. HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE? In Colossians 1:26-27 we read “Even the mystery which has been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to His saints: to whom God would make known what is the riches of glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you the hope of glory:” and in 1Peter 1:10-12 the prophets “have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: searching what or what manner of time the spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.” The Bible indicates that both Paul and Peter preached about the things revealed when Christ came and that prior to that time, the Messiah that the Old Testament prophets prophesied about, was yet still a mystery to them. However, the BOM in Jacob 4:3-4 contradicts this by stating that they “knew of Christ, and we had a hope of his glory many hundred years before his coming and not only we ourselves had a hope of his glory but also all the holy prophets which were before us.” (Emphasis added). How does one explain this contradiction since both accounts do not agree? Which one do we accept as truth? Jacob 4:5 referring to “the holy prophets which were before us,” in the previous verse, goes on to say that the holy prophets “worshipped the Father in his name…” Based on the BOM story line the only holy prophets that would have come “before us” would have been those who lived in Israel (Old Testament prophets). One must wonder if the Israelites worshipped the Father in Christ’s name then why didn’t this information end up in the Bible? The word Christ (a Greek word) is only found in the New Testament; The word Savior is found 13 times in the Old Testament. One time each in 2 Samuel, 2 Kings, Psalm 106, Jeremiah, Hosea and eight times in Isaiah; and the name Jesus (other than it’s Hebrew counterpart Joshua) is not found in the Old Testament There are probably other titles for Christ that could be checked but the ones mentioned will be sufficient to prove the point being made. In other words, the BOM statement about the holy prophets of the Old Testament worshipping the Father in Christ’s name is not true. In 3 N 24:1-25:6 are almost word for word from Malachi 3 and 4 even the italicized words which were added to the KJV text. As with other incidences of where the BOM quotes Biblical text, one must ask some questions that arise out of this common practice of the BOM author. These questions include: 1). Why did the BOM Jesus only quote Malachi 3 and 4? When Malachi was originally written there was no chapter or verse identification. If one examines the latter part of Malachi 2 they will find that parts of Malachi 3 are not as clear without Malachi 2, particularly the part about why the Father was preparing the way for the “Lord whom ye seek shall suddenly come to his temple”. In Malachi 2:17 the Israelites asked “where is the God of judgment? God then says I am sending Him after the messenger (John the Baptist) has come to prepare the way of repentance for their sins against God. The message to Israel through the prophet Malachi addressed in chapters 1 and 2 the sins of Israel particularly in 4 categories: a.) sorcerers b.) adulterers c.) false swearers and d.) those who oppress the hireling, the widow, the fatherless and stranger, chapters 3 and 4 tell how God is going to deal with these sins in judgment both in His first coming and His second coming. As can be seen, to use the Malachi 3 and 4 chapters and not chapters 1 and 2 causes more confusion and even points to “a desire to decieve” by the BOM author. 2). How does the BOM Jesus quote the KJV word for word including the inserted words by the translators (the words in italics) almost 1500 years before they were written? 3). After quoting these 2 chapters of Malachi it says in 3 Nephi 26:1 that the BOM Jesus expounded on the meaning of these verses, however, the “Lord forbade” Mormon from writing this down. So how do future generations know what the BOM Jesus expounded? Mormon 3:15 quotes Romans 12:19 “Vengeance is mine, I will repay;” This verse in Romans is based on Deuteronomy 32:35 and several Old Testament passages, however, the only place these specific words are used in this order is in the Romans 12:19 location. How then does someone writing in another part of the world with no access to the Book of Romans come up with the same verse? NOW WITH JUST THESE FEW INSTANCES PLUS THE ONE ABOUT NOT DOING WHAT THE ZORAMITES (PHARISEES) DO MAKES ONE WONDER IF THE BOM IS REALLY TRUE OR WHETHER THERE IS A MAJOR EFFORT TO DECIEVE BY SMITH AND OTHERS.
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11-15-2005, 11:03 AM
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Paul, you are missing my point. Jesus Christ was the teacher in all cases. It is not the prophet's words, but his. He teaches no differently today than he did to the Nephites after his resurrection, the Nephites in 500 BC, Abraham or even to Adam. His gospel is the same. It is easy to copy a few words in a sentence from the same person and it be copied down the same by different people in different ages. Atleast it is not a problem for me to believe...
__________________
The ornament of a house is the friends who frequent it. Ralph Waldo Emerson
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11-15-2005, 11:54 AM
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inactivetx,
You've probably also noticed that the Book of Mormon records that our Lord personally taught many things to the Nephites when He visited them personally, like when He taught what we call the "sermon on the mount" to the Nephites in pretty much the same words He had taught that "sermon" to the people in Israel. But, you could believe, like you do, that Joseph Smith only copied that information into the Book of Mormon, and that our Lord never did appear to the people we call the Nephities, nor did He teach those things to anyone else other than the people in Israel. It's all a matter of perspective, and of faith, which is why I still believe that the only way to know the Book of Mormon is truly what it claims to be is by receiving a witness from the Holy Ghost. And yes, for those who do not receive that witness, it can be considered a stumbling block.
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11-15-2005, 12:08 PM
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Im still waiting for someone to adaquetly explain how the Nephites learn to say "Adieu", when even the French language didn't exist at the time?
And don't bother with Jeff Lindsay's lame argument that the word was the best match for the "translation". English words were used for the whole BoM, and "Good bye" would have been a suitable word. Or, if Smith wanted to be literal, why not say "God be with you"? Lindsay's objections to the use of French words in the Bible don't mean squat. We all know that those weren't god-inspired translations using magic spec's or a nifty rock in a hat. If anyone's got a better answer, I'd love to hear it.
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11-15-2005, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
I would still would like to know when anything anyone has answered for you in the past has done for you.... spiritually speaking... If you are not really investigating the church... and praying about it and fasting and living a righteous life.... what the heck good is telling you anything about the word Adieu? You just want to haggle. I for one am tired of it.
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11-15-2005, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
I stand with you there Please  B<<<<F>>>>D<<<F>>L
__________________
Well Sinead O' Rebellion. Shock me shock me shock me with that deviant behavior! (Empire Records)
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11-15-2005, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
I sorry Josie but Jesus wasn't the teacher in all the BOM passages I included in my last post. In fact the majority of them were in 1 and 2 Nephi. How can you explain that it was Jesus speaking to them there?
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11-15-2005, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
Second, depending on what you think "righteous" means, I consider myself to be a good, decent, morally upstanding member of my community. If you think sitting in church for three hours every sunday makes you righteous, then I suppose Im not. Quote:
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