Mormon Chapter 9

[TBWilson]

Okay, you referred to Mormon 9:9-10 that basically says God doesn't change. That if He were a changeable God He would no longer be a God of miracles.

And how does the changes surrounding polygamy and the blacks w/o the priesthood fit into this?

Well, first of all, polygamy has always been a part of God's system. It's all over the Old Testament. And even in the Book of Mormon, talking to Jacob about it, the Lord said He will command polygamy when He sees fit to do so, to raise up righteous seed unto Him. Sounds reasonable to me.

And Joseph Smith did ordain a black man to the priesthood. Elijah Abel. That's part of LDS Church history. And where in the Book of Commandments (what the D&C was first titled) is the revelation that put a stop to more blacks receiving the priesthood in the 19th century? It's not there, nor in the Pearl of Great Price. So how did the blacks not receiving the priesthood continue until 1978? How did hogwash stories like the blacks being "neutral in the pre-existence" come about? How is it that men are human and subject to error?

The Lamanites in the Book of Mormon received their "curse" of black skin so they would not be enticing to then righteous Nephites. It worked for awhile, but eventually the Lamanites prevailed. The black race did come from Cain's seed. That has nothing to do with any black person's worthiness now or in the pre-existence. It's just a matter of skin color and cultural background.

The Book of Mormon states that the gospel is for all.....male and female, bond and free, black and white. The priesthood IS the administration of the gospel on earth. For years men like Spencer W. Kimball felt that it was wrong that blacks did not hold the priesthood. He did pray earnestly in the temple in 1978 and received a strong message from the Lord to put an end to it.

My personal feeling is that the Lord never withholds blessings from anyone based on race or heritage. Just as we are not responsible for Adam's transgression in the garden, no man can be responsible for his father's sins. No man can be denied the priesthood because of his race. That is absolutely absurd. Joseph Smith knew that from the beginning of this dispensation. That is why he ordained Elijah Abel.

So what happened between 1844 and 1978? A lot of prejudice happened, that's what. White Europeans from England and Scandinavia pretty much filled the ranks of Church membership, establishing themselves in positions of leadership. And the Lord allowed this prejudice in His church? Absolutely. The Lord never steps on agency. And in His wisdom, the Lord knew that short-lived prejudice was not going to thwart His plans.

It was only 134 years that the prejudice prevailed. Not bad in terms of the history of the world. I personally knew my great-grandmother for my first 22 years. She was born in 1883, ten years old at the dedication of the Salt Lake Temple. I knew her! The blacks were denied the priesthood by the weakness of men, by their prejudice, for just a couple of generations before the Lord prevailed upon His prophet to fully prepare the world for His second coming.

And so our awesome black brothers have been with us in the priesthood for nearly 30 years. The restored gospel is in full bloom with temples, missionaries, tand emple and genealogy work that staggers the stats of the past. But in all the greatness of the restored gospel, it will always be puny compared to the hosts of the wicked in this world. There will be great divisions and great calamities that will not be turned away.

And so let us be about preparing ourselves temporally and spiritually. We have little time to question our faith in this great work because of some speed bumps along the way. After all, we are in a fallen Telestial world... the only world in all of God's creations wicked enough to kill the Son of God. The resulting atonement made was an "infinite atonement' that applies to all the worlds created, even as numerous as the grains of sand along the seashore.

Let us ponder the magnificence of this work. We are so honored by God just to be on this planet among the Saints of the very last days. He is in control and His Son is at the helm, guiding and directing every move.

There are yet ahead events that will shake and divide this Church. People cannot put their faith in men nor in traditionals ways. The prophet may yet be the last man standing. We cannot tell God his business. We are not to counsel the Lord, but are to receive His counsel. Only therein lies true safety, peace and contentment.

I hope I have helped you along, my good sister,

Tim

[vinny15]

In the bible christ preached the gospel, but he did not teach the Canaanites.

The gospel is given line upon line precept upon precept. The gospel is added upon for the change in time. God hasnt changed he has always been the same, but do you expect him to give an acount of all his laws.

We believe in obeying the law of the land and we had polygamy, but since it became illegal we ommited one that wasnt a cmmandment, but a key.

[Doctor Steuss]

So that's what it means...salvation requirements will never change...I never saw it that way before......

Still doesn't explain the rules chaging on other things though
[/b]

This is a quote from Ruben J. Clark (as cited in the Autumn 1981 issue of Dialogue). He was speaking of the Word of Wisdom in particular, but I think his words regarding rules and laws can be applied elsewhere as well.

"...the Church cannot change the laws of God. They stand immutable. We may change the rules; we may say that a drunkard... [or] he who drinks tea and coffee may go into the temple. These rules we may change. But we cannot change the biological law that he who uses narcotics must pay the penalty somehow, somewhere, sometime...."

Rules can and will change. But the laws of G-d are immutable.

[Shade]

Anyway, I cam across this yesterday (yes, I'm behind!) and it just jumped out at me....It's Mormon Chapter 9 verse 9 and 10 in paticualar but the whole cahpter really.

[/b]

of the rest of the chapter, i quite like the next couple of verses: 11-13

11 But behold, I will show unto you a God of miracles, even the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; and it is that same God who created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are.
12 Behold, he created Adam, and by Adam came the fall of man. And because of the fall of man came Jesus Christ, even the Father and the Son; and because of Jesus Christ came the redemption of man.
13 And because of the redemption of man, which came by Jesus Christ, they are brought back into the presence of the Lord; yea, this is wherein all men are redeemed, because the death of Christ bringeth to pass the resurrection, which bringeth to pass a redemption from an endless sleep, from which sleep all men shall be awakened by the power of God when the trump shall sound; and they shall come forth, both small and great, and all shall stand before his bar, being redeemed and loosed from this eternal band of death, which death is a temporal death.

if i'm reading this correctly, HF created Adam and then allowed him to make a mistake, which allowed the Earth to become populated, which allowed our Saviour to be born, and as Adam will be judged for his sins, so shall we all be judged. which is kinda the whole point of our existence ont his Earth, right?

so where would we be if HF did not allow our leaders to make mistakes?

*edit*
oooh-oooh-oooh... and then there is THISline, too... Moroni & his dad also had their shortcomings...

31 Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father, because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been.

[Aphrodite]

Okay I am really struggling to have faith here. I guess you could say that I used to have the faith of a child....all believing, all knowing, all trusting. Now I feel that faith been shaken as I realize that our leaders do make mistakes, are not perfect, give bad advise, etc.

I have also been pondering the mysteries of the Lord and why he would allow pologamy, not give blacks the priesthood, etc and if all this "revelation" was just shortcomings on man's part. But at the same time it is said that the Lord will not allow the church to be led astray. So I don't know.

Anyway, I cam across this yesterday (yes, I'm behind!) and it just jumped out at me....It's Mormon Chapter 9 verse 9 and 10 in paticualar but the whole cahpter really.

To save time I won't type it all here, but what do you all think of thi sin relation to what I said above?[/b]

Prend1, You have voiced the same feelings and issues I am having with the church. The posts here have been excellent and have made me think a lot. However, plainbook (yours was the best post btw) what you say is that while the gospel is perfect the leaders in it are not and make mistakes. Basically the tired old phrase the church is perfect the men in it are not which Im frankly sick of hearing.

The reason this bugs me is that we are then completely at the mercy of our imperfect leaders. What one Bishop decides is ok, another will utterly go against. People have their own ideas and agendas, and some people in leadership positions are downright nasty and can make your life difficult. Your church life can be miserable, and unprogressable, due to the fault of a leader. It can and does happen, Ive seen it myself.

So, my question is, why should we be affected by the decisions of a dodgy leader? Why should I live my life doing things that in all reality might be pointless? It feels like you're a pawn in a game led by a very specific and small number of people. You are totally at their beck and call, at their mercy. So what if they're wrong? You are doing things for them, not for the Lord, you are a victim of and are carrying out false actions on their part. So you are living your life for men and not for God. Yet in D&C it says whether it be out of my mouth or out of the mouth of my servants it is the same. That to me means whatever the 'called' decide he will support. which then contradicts the whole men are not perfect thing, as the lord is allowing them to make mistakes that adversely affect you. Am I making sense?

Plus, when you actually sit down and think about some of the things we have to do it does border on the ridiculous. Ive mentioned these things before, but when I come to my day of judgement I honestly do not believe that God will give two hoots how many earrings Ive got, what clothes I wear, what music I listen to. Im sure he'll be interested in my works, my charity and service, and what is in my heart. Not, hmmm you had two earrings. Off to the telestial kingdom with you!!!! It does seem ridiculous!!!!!!

Plus, prend, you are right, things do change!! The temple has changed so drastically over the years. Things have been taken out. So, are those things still relevant and we arent told about it, or are they irrelavnt in which case those people who had the old way did it for nothing?

I'm not trying to be obtuse, but a few people have said 'have faith' and 'just trust in the Lord'. Thats all well and good, but thats basically saying, do it anyway and hope for the best. Faith is after all, basically 'hope' as Alma says, things which are not seen but which are hoped for. At the end of the day no one actually knows what will happen when we die. No one! No one has seen it, we havent been there. In short, we dont know. we just have to hope for the best, and hope its true. So, to just obey and do all that the church tells you seems so pointless. We SHOULD question, we SHOULD be taking control of our lives, evaluationg them all the time so we are doing whats best for us and our families. Not just sailing through doing random things taught by the church and hoping for the best.

My current thoughts and position on the church is this: I refuse to have my life dictated to me and led through the faults and weakness of men who think they're doing the best for me. I know whats best for me better than people at church! Therefore, I'll be the best person I can be on my and the Lords terms. Ill give service and charity, Ive devoted my life to caring for and looking after others with my career. Ill be the best wife I can be, Ill be the best Mother, I'll pray and talk to the Lord for guidance and to draw closer to him. Ill live the commandements. I'll read the scriptures as they generally teach the basics of christianity. Honesty, love respect for parents etc. Ill go to church sacrament meetings for the sacrament and to feel the spirit from the hymns. I do not wish to participate in sunday school or activities etc as you just get caught up in all the church rituals and rules that take away from the simplicity of christianity.

I dont hate the church, I just feel its slightly off the path for true christainity (due to the faults of 'men') and takes away the focus from faith works and charity. If I cut out all that and live it as basically as possible from a christian point of view, while still having a life, I believe when I die, if there is a God, which I believe there is but do not KNOW there is, he will say to me, well done thou good and faithful servant. Wow I feel really emotional having written that last bit. I feel its confirmed for me, I really felt really overpowered just now, that this is the right path for me, the right way to go. I think ppl will still make it if they're church members-theyve just gone a really long winded way about it. And thats upto people to decide. I dont think the temple rituals, signs tokens, etc will get me into heaven any more than saying hail marys will. Its how I am as a person, what I do to be a good christian. I believe with all my heart that this the right way for me and I wont be denied the blessings of heaven.

Any thoughts??

sorry prend i realised i have sort of hijacked your post as i got carried away with my own thoughts on things, albeit similar to yours. I should have started a separate post in general discussion. sorry

[bunnzy]

"I dont think the temple rituals, signs tokens, etc will get me into heaven any more than saying hail marys will. Its how I am as a person, what I do to be a good christian. I believe with all my heart that this the right way for me and I wont be denied the blessings of heaven."

This comment disturbs me. How will you pass through the veil without such sacred signs, names and tokens? Is it your belief that men have just decided to put them there, and HF doesnt think that they matter? They matter very much. I wish you would value them more highly. You CANNOT enter the kingdom of God if you do not keep the sacred covenants made in the temple. If you do not respect those covenants, you will not be keeping them.

[Aphrodite]

How will you pass through the veil without such sacred signs, names and tokens? Is it your belief that men have just decided to put them there, and HF doesnt think that they matter?[/b]

Frankly, yes.

If you do not respect those covenants, you will not be keeping them.[/b]

No Im not. My post about church leaders is where all my feelings on this is known so I wont go over it again.

I have several issues and am trying to work through them. The problem is, Im happier 'breaking' covenants if thas how you want to put it than living it. Living them makes me miserable and bitter. Not doing them makes me feel happy and free. My family and loved ones make it complicated and I only do what I do for them really. Maybe that will change one day I dont know. CK gave me some good advice and im still thinking about it, but again, the things id have to do to get to the temple are to me so difficult and hard to do, they outweigh the reasons to go.

At the end of the day I still dont believe that a loving and true God would deny his children access to his prescence. What about all the billions of people that have gone before us?? With only a smidgen of a percent doing temple work, doesnt seem like the best way to ensure ones salvation.

[Dove]

Okay I am really struggling to have faith here. I guess you could say that I used to have the faith of a child....all believing, all knowing, all trusting. Now I feel that faith been shaken as I realize that our leaders do make mistakes, are not perfect, give bad advise, etc.

I have also been pondering the mysteries of the Lord and why he would allow pologamy, not give blacks the priesthood, etc and if all this "revelation" was just shortcomings on man's part. But at the same time it is said that the Lord will not allow the church to be led astray. So I don't know.

Anyway, I cam across this yesterday (yes, I'm behind!) and it just jumped out at me....It's Mormon Chapter 9 verse 9 and 10 in paticualar but the whole cahpter really.

To save time I won't type it all here, but what do you all think of thi sin relation to what I said above?
[/b]

Hi Prend1-
Some scriptures which might help with the polygamy questions are Jacob 2:24-30, and D&C 132:34-39. As far as I understand, God gives the law of polygamy when raising children in the gospel is needed and necessary to build up the Kingdom.
I really appreciate your bravery in acknowledging that "leaders do make mistakes, are not perfect, give bad advice, etc." Thanks to Aphorodite for giving voice to this as well. I've really struggled with this since coming to this site, because even though I agree with you, I've heard strong opinions that differ from this. It really helped to talk to my mom today, she is strong LDS but also aware of human fallibility in PH callings. D&C 121:34-44 contains beautiful passages about PH "authority." Some of what I got from my mom today, is that if someone is not acting righteously in his PH calling, we do not have to follow. However, that God will not let the prophet lead us astray.
Although God is "unchangeable, with no variableness neither shadow of changing," I believe certain commandments change (the law of Moses vs. the law of Christ, Polygamy, etc.) according to the particular needs of a people in a certain time. Although some commandments may change, the governing principals/character of God do/does not.
Hope this helps.
Dove

[Traveler]

There is a problem in understanding covenants. D&C 84 teaches some things about covenants and how we are tied to G-d through his servants in covenant. I do not know if this will be understood but covenants are not about an individual. We (the LDS) are a covenant people not a lot of covenant individuals. It is by covenant that we become a united body and one with G-d and the saints of G-d. Supporting you leaders does not always mean that you agree with them – If you disagree there are ways to support them and let your concerns be known. This covenant is often compared to the covenant of marriage. Would you or your loving partner ever make a mistake in your marriage covenant? And how should your spouse treat you concerning your mistake. By going inactive with their covenant before G-d?

Thinking of salvation in terms of you and what you get is not part of the discipline of a “disciple” of the Christ or the covenant to love G-d and others as yourself. The great question one should ask is “Are you part of the problem or are you part of the solution?”

If you are certain there is a better way then you should demonstrate that better way. Show us – don’t just talk about what you think is wrong.

One last statement about G-d unchanging. Most of us think of the “Eternal” G-d in a temporal sense. There was an ancient concept that “Eternal” was outside of time and had nothing to do with time. The eternal concept had to do with something that could not be altered in the “NOW”. The eternal concept had to do with the effects of now in that that which is eternal is not changed with the now. The now is a spiritual concept – it is a concept outside of time and place. It is what and who we are as well as what and who G-d is. This is the great mystery – to be aware and prepared for now is the essence of eternal.

The Traveler

[snipe123]

Okay I am really struggling to have faith here. I guess you could say that I used to have the faith of a child....all believing, all knowing, all trusting. Now I feel that faith been shaken as I realize that our leaders do make mistakes, are not perfect, give bad advise, etc.

I have also been pondering the mysteries of the Lord and why he would allow pologamy, not give blacks the priesthood, etc and if all this "revelation" was just shortcomings on man's part. But at the same time it is said that the Lord will not allow the church to be led astray. So I don't know.

Anyway, I cam across this yesterday (yes, I'm behind!) and it just jumped out at me....It's Mormon Chapter 9 verse 9 and 10 in paticualar but the whole cahpter really.

To save time I won't type it all here, but what do you all think of thi sin relation to what I said above?
[/b]

I wanted to give you a few priciples that help me when settling these types of questions, and if you wish me to clarify or delve more into your questions specifically, then I will be happy to do so, as I have had similar questions...

1)While it is true that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, it is plain from the scriptures that the way that he deals with his children on earth is not always the same...the plan is the same, but the lesson plan changes, and it sometimes changes dramatically.
2) Some practices and beliefs in the Bible, or Book of Mormon, or in the early days of the restoration for that matter, may not appeal to our modern sensibilities, religious ideals or culture, but that does not make them untrue...
3)It is best when examining these questions, to view them in their historical context and setting, as well as the historical dealings the Lord has had on that particular subject in the past, not from our modern perspective or by just looking at one instance.
4)Exercising faith when answering these questions is crucial to receiving help from the Lord (and there is definite help for these questions, believe me.)and it will be useful if you discover these answers in your studies, rather than being spoon fed the answer by someone else(not criticising you at all) While it is useful to ask questions of others, it may not be reliable enough to provide you the ultimate answer to your questions, because your testimony will hinge on whoever can give you a better answer. Your opinions and convictions are subject to change with whatever argument that comes along that is better than the one that gave you your present conviction. Others can point you in the right direction, but giving you ultimate peace is between you and The Lord.
There is nothing better than the sweet whisperings of the spirit of God to aid you in your studies...The world will tell you to use your senses, but there is another "sense" which is the Spirit and it is stronger and more convincing than any argument devised by man, or the devil for that matter...

So with the priciples above in mind, I would like to speak briefly about the two subjects you mentioned...they are very complex historically, and from a religious standpoint but perhaps i can point you in the right direction...

I am not ashamed that blacks were at one time excluded from the priesthood...I don't go around proclaiming that it was so, simply because it is a very complex issue to explain and talk about due to the sheer volumn of historical context that must be understood...Blacks and the priesthood is very interesting historically and should not be seen as a policy motivated by racism...seems odd to say that in todays society, but as mentioned by other respondants, Mormons were totally against slavery and is one of the chief reasons that people were opposed to Mormons holding state public office...Joseph Smith had a black girl live in his household he adopted her as his daughter...Some of the first Mormon pioneers to enter the Utah Valley, were black...There is an excellent book on the subject...probably out of print now, but it discusses this issue in depth, from a historical perspective and will probably give you a lot to chew on...much more than i can mention here...Its called: Neither White or Black. I think it was published by Sea gull book.

So that's all very interesting historically, but it does not answer the question, and that is because typically people who have trouble with blacks being excluded from holding the priesthood are not asking the right question...Some better questions might be: Are blacks the only people ever excluded from holding the priesthood by God? Why would God exclude anyone from holding his priesthood? The answer to the first question is definitely: Yes!...Almost everyone was excluded!...In fact at one time, the authority to minister in Gods name (the pristhood) was reserved for one paticular tribe in the house of Israel(Gods covenant people or people of the promise)...The Levites. The rest of the people were totally dependent on the Levites to do sacrifices for them to atone for their sins.Weren't the other people just as capable of learning and performing these ordinances, and remaining worthy etc? Of course they were...So the question is why would God do things that way, and unfortunatley we really have no idea...God gave the responsibility to the Levites and no others...that's all we know...Why do we hold the Mormon church to a higher standard than that? Women, historically, in the early Christian church, were also not given the priesthood...thats not to say, they did not have spiritual gifts...they certainly did...prophecy among them, but they did not have the priesthood...Until the ministry of Paul, the Gospel was not even preached to the Gentiles (with a few notable exceptions)They were certainly not entrusted with the priesthood before that time...These are historical realities that are difficult to reconcile from our modern perspective...We like to be inclusive...it's who we are, but it is not always how God dealt with others, and we don't know why for certain...all we can say, is that in some of the things we see as exclusionary, Mormons find themsleves in good company on these, and many other issues...I do not wish to be misunderstood in anything I have said here, so if you need clarification, please let me know...

As to Polygamy, we should not be ashamed or embarrassed by the practice in our history...it does not appeal to us for sure...seems foreign...it has been condemned at various times for particular people, but the fact is that as a principle, one is not condemned by God for practicing it, atleast when it is authorized...as an example, if God frowns upon polygamy at all times, then Abraham (who had 2 wives)surely would be condemned, but in fact, according to the New Testament, he is sitting on the right hand of God with his sons Isaac and Jacob. Jacob, who was renamed Israel, had 12 sons and is the father of what we refer to as The 12 Tribes of Israel(one tribe for each son)He had 4 wives. He had children with them...had he not had more than one wife, we would only be talking about the 6 tribes of Israel! These are the people of the promise...It is through this seed that "all the nations of the earth will be blessed". So does God condemn polygamists? Yes...the ones not authorized, like the ones in Jacob in The Book of Mormon, and modern "Mormon Fundamentalists". Christ forbade the early Christians from engaging in the practice...

But as we have seen, some polygamists were exalted! Again, I am not saying we should all run out and be polygamists, but we need to stop being ashamed that the Mormon church at one time practiced it...What is it's purpose and why was it stopped? Why it was done, is perhaps the easier of the two to understand...That is a question for another time...I just wanted to point out some historical realities which are critical to understanding these issues...again, if you need clarification, please ask...