Revelation 22:18-19 Perhaps A Better Way To Look At It

[Doctor Steuss]

Good bit of humor hear about textual variants and the command not to mess with John's Revelation. Nevertheless, the book is part of the canon for LDS, and nearly all branches of Christianity. We tend to accept those variants our translators have given to us. However, of course, we'd be wise not to ground a particular doctrine upon a variant that's proven controversial.

... That's why I gave up snake handling. :-)
[/b]

IIRC, the vast majority of the variants don't influence doctrinal matters at all, and are mostly scribal errors (the ancient version of a typo). I think there (again, IIRC) are a few attempts at harmonization within some manuscripts that cause some issues, but overall, the text we now have is fairly reliable (although I personally would take the NRSV over the KJV).

[AnthonyB]

The other problem with not adding words to the text is that it was written in koine greek and therefore any translation is using words that were never in the original. (English words whether KJV or NIV weren't used by the authors.) Trying to use an exact translation of every word would end up leaving you with unreadable mess that would often be totally misleading to the original meaning. Every translation has to add or remove words to make any sense of the text in a new language. We also have to alter word order to fit the differing grammar rule.

[Traveler]

The other problem with not adding words to the text is that it was written in koine greek and therefore any translation is using words that were never in the original. (English words whether KJV or NIV weren't used by the authors.) Trying to use an exact translation of every word would end up leaving you with unreadable mess that would often be totally misleading to the original meaning. Every translation has to add or remove words to make any sense of the text in a new language. We also have to alter word order to fit the differing grammar rule.
[/b]

I understand this problem and have asked the question in the past - Where does the authorization come from to translate or provide commentary to the Book of Revelation?

I understand that the wisdom of the world can help but is not such thinking heresy? If G-d would have any understand - is his spirit sufficient or not? The LDS view is that the scriptures of the Bible are the word of G-d only when translated correctly. This is the only view of the Book of Revelation that I can in all honesty support.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

The other problem with not adding words to the text is that it was written in koine greek and therefore any translation is using words that were never in the original. (English words whether KJV or NIV weren't used by the authors.) Trying to use an exact translation of every word would end up leaving you with unreadable mess that would often be totally misleading to the original meaning. Every translation has to add or remove words to make any sense of the text in a new language. We also have to alter word order to fit the differing grammar rule.
[/b]

IMHO, God is pleased with his church for going to such lengths to translate his Word for the world. John's warning was clearly not to alter the message God had given him--not even a little bit. Shielding the message from non-Greek readers hardly seems to be what John (God) meant.

[GB-UK]

From what I remember from my time at Bible college (Mattersey Hall, the AOG Bible College in the UK) this passage was taught to mean the book of revelation and not the whole cannon of the bible.

[prisonchaplain]

From what I remember from my time at Bible college (Mattersey Hall, the AOG Bible College in the UK) this passage was taught to mean the book of revelation and not the whole cannon of the bible.
[/b]

Since you learned straight from Jerusalem, this issue is resolved.

[Traveler]

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The other problem with not adding words to the text is that it was written in koine greek and therefore any translation is using words that were never in the original. (English words whether KJV or NIV weren't used by the authors.) Trying to use an exact translation of every word would end up leaving you with unreadable mess that would often be totally misleading to the original meaning. Every translation has to add or remove words to make any sense of the text in a new language. We also have to alter word order to fit the differing grammar rule.
[/b]

IMHO, God is pleased with his church for going to such lengths to translate his Word for the world. John's warning was clearly not to alter the message God had given him--not even a little bit. Shielding the message from non-Greek readers hardly seems to be what John (God) meant.
[/b][/quote]
How is this known? Was G-d pleased with his church for allowing a non-authorized individual to support the Ark of the Covenant from falling?

Matt 7:23 reads in the KJV as follows: "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. This is a most interesting scripture and has a variant reading. I have been informed by experts that the interpertation of the above to use the word "knew" can also be understood to mean "authorized" so one way of understanding could be - "And then will I profess unto them, I never authorized you: depart from me, ye that do the work of providing mis-direction".

I am not sure the world is ready for the Book of Revelation - I wonder if Christians are ready for such things. It does not appear to me that the Christians - even of the period when John wrote the Revelation understood it any better than the experts of today.

I do not pretend to understand the Book of Revelation but I am quite sure that I understand it as good or better than those that claim that G-d has made the truth of this scripture known to them. I storngly suspect that in due cource that G-d will make his wisdom of this scripture known at a time that will shame and prove the wisdom of man no more than foolishness.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

How is this known? Was G-d pleased with his church for allowing a non-authorized individual to support the Ark of the Covenant from falling?[/b]

No. That was a deadly sin. God's command about the Ark was clear--and everyone knew it.

Matt 7:23 reads in the KJV as follows: "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. This is a most interesting scripture and has a variant reading. I have been informed by experts that the interpertation of the above to use the word "knew" can also be understood to mean "authorized" so one way of understanding could be - "And then will I profess unto them, I never authorized you: depart from me, ye that do the work of providing mis-direction".[/b]

That's a convenient re-writing. But, such could be a double-edged sword. I'm sure that some of our Catholic friends might also chomp at the bit of that one.

I am not sure the world is ready for the Book of Revelation - I wonder if Christians are ready for such things. It does not appear to me that the Christians - even of the period when John wrote the Revelation understood it any better than the experts of today. [/b]

Of course they did...it was written for them, first of all. However, John promises blessings for those who read and who hear the Revelation. I spent three years teaching the book to an adult Sunday School class. We focused on Jesus, since it is a revelation of him--and we held on to what was revealed, rather than trying to force answers to questions the writing does not clearly answer.

I do not pretend to understand the Book of Revelation but I am quite sure that I understand it as good or better than those that claim that G-d has made the truth of this scripture known to them. I storngly suspect that in due cource that G-d will make his wisdom of this scripture known at a time that will shame and prove the wisdom of man no more than foolishness.[/b]

I do not understand the tone of this. We are told to give honor to whom honor is due, and that God does indeed appoint some to be teachers. So...why the allegation that those who teach Revelation with the help of much study are somehow spiritually arrogant?

[Traveler]

<div class='quotemain'>
I am not sure the world is ready for the Book of Revelation - I wonder if Christians are ready for such things. It does not appear to me that the Christians - even of the period when John wrote the Revelation understood it any better than the experts of today. [/b]

Of course they did...it was written for them, first of all. However, John promises blessings for those who read and who hear the Revelation. I spent three years teaching the book to an adult Sunday School class. We focused on Jesus, since it is a revelation of him--and we held on to what was revealed, rather than trying to force answers to questions the writing does not clearly answer.


[/b][/quote]
There are many scriptures about Christ that are not understood or even denied. Scriptures often are written around strong symbols but because certain interpretations of things are preferred over seeking understanding from G-d – even considerations of possibilities beyond the wisdom of man become heresy.

Consider the symbolism of Christ in Chapter 19 or 20 of Revelation. (pardon me for forgetting and not having scriptures available or time to look it up on the internet). Here Christ utilizes the symbols of a sword and fire as he brings salvation to fallen man. Where else in scripture do we see such symbols used in such a manner? How about Genesis as Adam and Eve are driven from Eden – The Garden of G-d? Suggest that this is a symbolic Messiah prophesy that is fulfilled in the Book of Revelation and many varieties of Christians will burn you at the stake of heresy. And without any explanation of why Christ and some other (perhaps lesser being) are charged with the same symbols.

(And I would add that the understanding of this prophetic relationship could bring together Christian, Jew and Islam - But since it would not be on the terms of the "wise" among any of them - it is not likely - until G-d intervenes and brings the wisdom of the wise to naught.)

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Traveler, you have a particular understanding of the meaning of the sword and fire from those two chapters. You are clearly disturbed that this particular view is not well-received. Perhaps, to you, the truth of that view is so clear that you conclude the world is not ready for this book within God's revealed written words to us.

Is there not an irony here?