Revelation 22:18-19 Perhaps A Better Way To Look At It

[Traveler]

Traveler, you have a particular understanding of the meaning of the sword and fire from those two chapters. You are clearly disturbed that this particular view is not well-received. Perhaps, to you, the truth of that view is so clear that you conclude the world is not ready for this book within God's revealed written words to us.

Is there not an irony here?
[/b]

Yes I would say there is some irony. Other than those two places in scripture; is the tandem symbols of sword and flame used anywhere else in scripture? Hmmmm. Is there any symbol given to cherubim in scripture that is not given to Christ or his rival to rule mankind at some point? There is some irony for you – following the judgment we will be ruled by Christ or his rival – Where is that symbolically manifested in scripture? Nowhere – according to the professional published experts. How ironic is that?

But let us start with the sword and fire and talk about meanings - Let us reason together and see - are any of the meanings to such symbols a fit better with some other individual other than with Christ? We can start in Genesis if you like. You tell me what you think is the meaning and the scripture that backs up your reasoning.

I would submit to you my friend that the true interpretation of all scripture points to Christ (especially that which deals with fallen man and his salvation) - even the scriptures that inform us of the "opposition" to Christ.

If we are to follow any rules at all to define the symbols in the Book of Revelation then let the rules apply throughout scripture and not un-apply them when we do not like the outcome. As I have said before – I have yet to read any commentary of the Book of Revelation that is consistent with its claim of symbolic interpretation and I am not a “trained professional” hoping to make a living of it. Maybe that is my problem and the irony of it.

It is not that I think I know the answers – I do not nor do I pretend I know the answers. But I think that the spirit is a better and more consistent source. Thanks for reading and offering your understanding through the spirit.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

Traveler, you have a particular understanding of the meaning of the sword and fire from those two chapters. You are clearly disturbed that this particular view is not well-received. Perhaps, to you, the truth of that view is so clear that you conclude the world is not ready for this book within God's revealed written words to us. Is there not some irony here?

Yes I would say there is some irony. [/b]

Traveler, have I corrected understood? You stand by your insistence that it is the Spirit's direction that we need to interpret Scripture, and yet insist that since most do not agree with your interpretation of a particular section of Revelation, the world is clearly not ready for it???

You may want to explain what your getting at here, because, on the surface, it seems inconsistent.

As for the sword and fire symbolism in Revelation and Genesis, perhaps if you would simply explicate your understanding more comprehensively (but succinctly), it would be easier for us to see what is driving your passion?

[CrimsonKairos]

Here's my take on things, PC.

The Mercy Seat in the Old Testament featured two cherubs facing each other, hands out-stretched. We read something interesting about a cherub in Ezekiel 28:12-18. Two main interpretations exist for this passage. The first interpretation is that God is talking to the King of Tyre and using metaphor and symbolic comparisons to show how blessed the King has been, and what end his wickedness merits. The second interpretation is that God is both speaking to the King of Tyre and by extension, to Satan as well. The imagery and symbolism fit Satan surprisingly well (from an LDS perspective). As you read this passage (particularly if you're LDS), doesn't it seem God is describing Satan in strikingly accurate terms? The "fall" from authority seems to echo that described in Isaiah 14:12 and D&C 76:26-27.

12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

If we believe the second interpretation, then the key is that God calls Satan a "cherub that covers." What image springs to mind when we think of a cherub covering something? Um, yes, the cherubim on the Mercy Seat of the Ark.

Satan and Christ are direct opponents, combatants for the souls of mankind. Each would draw us to their side. At the judgment bar, either Jesus will mediate our case, or Satan will claim us if we be unrepentant sinners. So the opposition of Jesus and Satan is clear. So the theory goes thusly (and anyone can correct, clarify, expand, etc.):

The two cherubs on the Mercy Seat actually represent Jesus and Satan, respectively. The two golden cherubs on the Mercy Seat were to face each other, wings touching, arms extended towards each other, as if both are reaching for something between them. Might that not be our souls? Also, the High Priest was to sprinkle the blood of the sacrificial goat on the Mercy Seat once a year on the Day of Atonement. It was that act that redeemed Israel from their sins. This sprinkling of sacrificial life blood is powerful imagery, invoking thoughts of Christ's plea on behalf of repentant sinners:

3 Listen to him who is the advocate with the Father, who is pleading your cause before him—
4 Saying: Father, behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, in whom thou wast well pleased; behold the blood of thy Son which was shed, the blood of him whom thou gavest that thyself might be glorified;
5 Wherefore, Father, spare these my brethren that believe on my name, that they may come unto me and have everlasting life. (D&C 45:3-5, emphasis mine)

It's as if we each take our turn standing on the Mercy Seat between the cherubim, Satan reaching for us on the left hand, and Jesus reaching for us on the right hand. God stands to judge us and determine which being (Jesus or Satan) will be permitted to lay hold on us and claim us as theirs.

The only way God judges us worthy of salvation is when Christ's redeeming blood is sprinkled on us and we take his name upon us and become as he is.

Otherwise, Satan claims us and we become devils, angels to a devil forever.

The imagery is actually quite striking (though I'm not certain it is an accurate interpretation of everything). These are things to ponder and consider, though I lack the spiritual assurance of their veracity in full, and hence would not teach them in Sunday School or Elders' Quorum, etc.

Hope that clarifies PC. Traveler, add or amend anything you think I left out or whatnot.

[prisonchaplain]

CK, I'm not sure your explanation is what Traveler had in mind, but it is not afar off from what many evangelicals believe. It is a common understanding that the passage you reference refers to Satan as much as to the King of Tyre. Where we would differ is that evangelicals do not believe Satan will rule over lost souls, or that any will be assigned to him. Rather, the limited "pleasure" Satan will have is the revenge of having turned a soul away from eternal fellowship with the Father.

[a-train]

For that matter, neither do the LDS believe that Satan will rule over the wicked in the eternities. However, the expression that he will 'seal them his', or 'rule over them' is still utilized figuratively only to suggest that they fell victim to his temptations to the extent of eternal ruin. The LDS will also agree that Satan's pleasure in his involvement in the ruin of the souls of men is very temporary if even actually enjoyable at all.

-a-train

[prisonchaplain]

Atrain, sounds like there are no serious disagreements then. And yet, Traveler seems concerned about the interpretation. I guess we'll await his explanation.

[CrimsonKairos]

For that matter, neither do the LDS believe that Satan will rule over the wicked in the eternities.
[/b]

Um, yes we do. At least, if you believe the Book of Mormon:

"3 For they are carnal and devilish, and the devil has power over them; yea, even that old serpent that did beguile our first parents, which was the cause of their fall; which was the cause of all mankind becoming carnal, sensual, devilish, knowing evil from good, subjecting themselves to the devil.
11 If they be good, to the resurrection of endless life and happiness; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of endless damnation, being delivered up to the devil, who hath subjected them, which is damnation—" (Mosiah 16:3, 11)

"6 And behold I say unto you all that this was a snare of the adversary, which he has laid to catch this people, that he might bring you into subjection unto him, that he might encircle you about with his chains, that he might chain you down to everlasting destruction, according to the power of his captivity.
17 Then is the time when their torments shall be as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever; and then is the time that they shall be chained down to an everlasting destruction, according to the power and captivity of Satan, he having subjected them according to his will." (Alma 12:6, 17)

"35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked." (Alma 34:35)

[prisonchaplain]

I like Atrain's answer better. Now. Who's right?

[CrimsonKairos]

Cast lots? (always wanted to do that)

Seriously though, PC, which scriptures lead you to believe Satan will not preside over the wicked that have followed his temptations and rejected Christ? Or do you like a-train's answer better as more of a "gut feeling" kinda thing?

[Traveler]

Atrain, sounds like there are no serious disagreements then. And yet, Traveler seems concerned about the interpretation. I guess we'll await his explanation.
[/b]

If you look at my posts you will find two things.

1. I did not give an interpretation - nor did I claim that I could solve the riddle of symbolism completely.
2. I did say that the symbolism was not eve addressed in the Beginning and Ending books of the Bible.

My question is - by what right does anyone say the symbols are not Messianic and related? If the things of G-d are not known by man but only by the spirit of G-d – as per Peter declaring Jesus as the “Son of G-d”.

So I will now ask the question directly – is it possible that the Cherubim of Eden is a prophesy directed towards the salvation of fallen man through Christ? You do not have to answer because I understand the problem that Trinitarians face concerning this matter. But I also understand that there is no interpretation or commentary from Trinitarians as to where or when man, in quest of the “Tree of Life” (eternal life or to live with G-d) or the path to it ever encounters the “Keeper of the way”.

I have read many a commentary that says that a sword represents justice and judgment but I have never read any commentary that draws the parallel to Christ back to Genesis. But I did imply that I believe the truth of this matter, if understood, could unite Christians, Jews and Islam to a understanding of Christ being the Messiah. But then perhaps that is why there is so much symbolism in scripture.

As I said there is a Trinitarian trap in trying to give any Messianic meaning to Cherubim and I have no intention of tricking you into it – I intended you discover it quietly and privately for yourself – as I did.

The Traveler