You're single because....

[Bracket]

Why is it considered not fine for LDS males to remain single, but it is considered perfectly fine for LDS females to remain single?

Former President Ezra Taft Benson stated to the Single Adult Brethren of the Church:

Remember the counsel of Elder Bruce R. McConkie that “the most important single thing that any Latter-day Saint ever does in this world is to marry the right person in the right place by the right authority” (Choose an Eternal Companion, Brigham Young University Speeches of the Year, Provo, 3 May 1966, p. 2).

Understand that temple marriage is essential to your salvation and exaltation.

...

May I now say an additional word about an eternal opportunity and responsibility to which I have referred earlier and which is of greatest importance to you. I am referring to celestial marriage.

Just a few weeks ago, I received a letter from two devoted parents, part of which reads as follows:

“Dear President Benson: We are concerned about what seems to be a growing problem—at least in this part of the Church familiar to us—that is, so many choice young men in the Church over the age of thirty who are still unmarried.

“We have sons thirty, thirty-one, and thirty-three in this situation. Many of our friends also are experiencing this same concern for unmarried sons and daughters.”

Their letter continues:

“In our experience these are usually young men who have been on missions, are well educated, and are living the commandments (except this most important one). There does not appear to be a lack of choice young ladies in the same age bracket who could make suitable companions.

“It is most frustrating to us, as their parents, who sometimes feel we have failed in our parental teachings and guiding responsibilities.”

My dear single adult brethren, we are also concerned. We want you to know that the position of the Church has never changed regarding the importance of celestial marriage. It is a commandment of God. The Lord’s declaration in Genesis is still true: “And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone” (Gen. 2:18).

To obtain a fulness of glory and exaltation in the celestial kingdom, one must enter into this holiest of ordinances.

Without marriage, the purposes of the Lord would be frustrated. Choice spirits would be withheld from the experience of mortality. And postponing marriage unduly often means limiting your posterity, and the time will come, brethren, when you will feel and know that loss.

I can assure you that the greatest responsibility and the greatest joys in life are centered in the family, honorable marriage, and rearing a righteous posterity. And the older you become, the less likely you are to marry, and then you may lose these eternal blessings altogether.

President Spencer W. Kimball recounted an experience he once had:

“Recently I met a young returned missionary who is 35 years old. He had been home from his mission for 14 years and yet he was little concerned about his bachelorhood, and laughed about it.

“I shall feel sorry for this young man when the day comes that he faces the Great Judge at the throne and when the Lord asks this boy: ‘Where is your wife?’ All of his excuses which he gave to his fellows on earth will seem very light and senseless when he answers the Judge. ‘I was very busy,’ or ‘I felt I should get my education first,’ or ‘I did not find the right girl’—such answers will be hollow and of little avail. He knew he was commanded to find a wife and marry her and make her happy. He knew it was his duty to become the father of children and provide a rich, full life for them as they grew up. He knew all this, yet postponed his responsibility” (Ensign, Feb. 1975, p. 2).

I realize that some of you brethren may have genuine fears regarding the real responsibilities that will be yours if you do marry. You are concerned about being able to support a wife and family and provide them with the necessities in these uncertain economic times. Those fears must be replaced with faith.

I assure you, brethren, that if you will be industrious, faithfully pay your tithes and offerings, and conscientiously keep the commandments, the Lord will sustain you. Yes, there will be sacrifices required, but you will grow from these and will be a better man for having met them.

Former President Ezra Taft Benson stated to the Single Adult Sisters of the Church:

I also recognize that not all women in the Church will have an opportunity for marriage and motherhood in mortality. But if those of you in this situation are worthy and endure faithfully, you can be assured of all blessings from a kind and loving Heavenly Father—and I emphasize all blessings.

I assure you that if you have to wait even until the next life to be blessed with a choice companion, God will surely compensate you. Time is numbered only to man. God has your eternal perspective in mind.

However, there are also quite a few men who are not able to get married in this lifetime. This may be due to mental illness, mental handicap, being very shy or being very ugly. Are these kinds of men really welcome to stay within the Church?

[Dravin]

Why is it considered not fine for LDS males to remain single, but it is considered perfectly fine for LDS females to remain single?

I'm not sure I agree with that summation. To reach it, at least based on your quotes, requires the ignoring of a certain amount of context. The first quote is talking about individuals who through their choices are not pursuing marriage and who, presumably, have no bar to doing so. The hypothetical excuses given by the man at the bar are not, "I was horribly crippled in an accident and no woman would go out with me or accept a proposal." or "I was born with trisomy-21." but presumably being overly picky (or flippant, could go either way), or putting other priorities ahead of it. Now note the comment to sisters, it's talking about those who did not have an opportunity in this life to get married. Not those who decided that education was more important, or that they were too busy to get married, are 'off the hook'. The comments are directed at different situations even if superficially they both share the element of unmarried adults in the Church.

Also, I'm gonna quote Elder Oaks here:

Originally Posted by Elder Oaks

If you feel you are a special case, so that the strong counsel I have given doesn’t apply to you, please don’t write me a letter. Why would I make this request? I have learned that the kind of direct counsel I have given results in a large number of letters from members who feel they are an exception, and they want me to confirm that the things I have said just don’t apply to them in their special circumstance.

I will explain why I can’t offer much comfort in response to that kind of letter by telling you an experience I had with another person who was troubled by a general rule. I gave a talk in which I mentioned the commandment “Thou shalt not kill” (Ex. 20:13). Afterward a man came up to me in tears saying that what I had said showed there was no hope for him. “What do you mean?” I asked him.

He explained that he had been a machine gunner during the Korean War. During a frontal assault, his machine gun mowed down scores of enemy infantry. Their bodies were piled so high in front of his gun that he and his men had to push them away in order to maintain their field of fire. He had killed a hundred, he said, and now he must be going to hell because I had spoken of the Lord’s commandment “Thou shalt not kill.”

The explanation I gave that man is the same explanation I give to you if you feel you are an exception to what I have said. As a General Authority, I have the responsibility to preach general principles. When I do, I don’t try to define all the exceptions. There are exceptions to some rules. For example, we believe the commandment is not violated by killing pursuant to a lawful order in an armed conflict. But don’t ask me to give an opinion on your exception. I only teach the general rules. Whether an exception applies to you is your responsibility. You must work that out individually between you and the Lord.

Link: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

General authorities give general advice and counsel.

However, there are also quite a few men who are not able to get married in this lifetime.

If such is truly the case I expect them to be in the same boat as sisters who are not able to get married in this lifetime.

Are these kinds of men really welcome to stay within the Church?

This probably isn't the question you mean to ask. Keep in mind if you aren't welcome to stay within the Church they go about excommunicating you. Even the hypothetical man President Benson was decrying wouldn't have been excommunicated.

[kayne]

I'm not sure I agree with that summation. To reach it, at least based on your quotes, requires the ignoring of a certain amount of context. The first quote is talking about individuals who through their choices are not pursuing marriage and who, presumably, have no bar to doing so. The hypothetical excuses given by the man at the bar are not, "I was horribly crippled in an accident and no woman would go out with me or accept a proposal." or "I was born with trisomy-21." but presumably being overly picky (or flippant, could go either way), or putting other priorities ahead of it. Now note the comment to sisters, it's talking about those who did not have an opportunity in this life to get married. Not those who decided that education was more important, or that they were too busy to get married, are 'off the hook'. The comments are directed at different situations even if superficially they both share the element of unmarried adults in the Church.

the point i believe that was trying to be made was if a girl fails to get married she is ok. if a guy fails to get married he better have one heck of a super awesome excuse and even then it could be a long shot in the dark.

just visit a singles ward. the elders quorum lessons have a very high chance of doing what i call defaulting the lesson. in other words they default with ease to this GO GET MARRIED NOW mentality. the bishops push it too. utah has an odd culture of being married within a month of dating. and there is just this general go get married or you are screwed attitude.

look i get it marriage = important. but the amount of pressure is downright absurd.

do the girls get this pressure? no not really. its almost always guys go find a girl and sucker her into marrying you. and i dont find this fair at all. also it seems women by church leaders are almost always put on some epic pedastal and guys are always thrown down. it really is beyond absurd its like girls cannot screw up but guys dont stop screwing up.

i believe this is what he was referring to and i agree. its unfair and it needs to stop. but perhaps i am wrong. perhaps the church leaders are receiving dreams that are saying the vast majority of LDS women are extremely holy and the vast majority of LDS men are not. but if that is the case one of them needs to come out and say that as i am tired of always getting thrown down.

and on marriage nothing is ever said on dating. i am not the only guy that doesnt know how to date really or what is expected. im not the only guy that female interaction has been nerfed greatly by years of porn. even though its not a problem anymore damage was done. and since so many LDS are in utah the concept of dating in utah is entirely different than everywhere else yet this stuff is never addressed and we are merely told go snag a wife with little direction on this is supposed to work when the media and the world and church all send three different meanings on how to do this and as a guy it is just downright confusing.

[Dravin]

the point i believe that was trying to be made was if a girl fails to get married she is ok. if a guy fails to get married he better have one heck of a super awesome excuse and even then it could be a long shot in the dark.

Anyone who puts off or otherwise undervalues the importance of marriage is going to be brought up short in the next life. Once again context is being ignored. Show me where the women are told in the context of putting education ahead of marriage, or that having unrealistic expectations, that it's all honky dory for them.

just visit a singles ward.

Singles wards are peculiar units but they are also minority units. Going to a single ward and then talking about 'the Church' as a whole is flawed. And yes they do stress marriage, but what do you expect? Of course they stress marriage more highly than a ward where the vast majority of (eligible) people are already married, Elder's Quorums don't stress the duties of Priests either, they stress the duties and responsibilities of Elders.

Attendance at a single's ward is not mandatory, if you dislike the direction and focus of single's wards than don't go to them.

do the girls get this pressure? no not really. its almost always guys go find a girl and sucker her into marrying you. and i dont find this fair at all. also it seems women by church leaders are almost always put on some epic pedastal and guys are always thrown down. it really is beyond absurd its like girls cannot screw up but guys dont stop screwing up.

Rightly or wrongly in many cultures people talk to, and teach, women different than men. The idea that men can handle a straight talking to while women are more sensitive to harsh language is out there. This is more of that context I was talking about. You're basically insisting that different situations and the different sexes be treated identically in how they are addressed, and while I can see the case for the latter I don't see it for the former.

Oh and my wife has heard the woman spoken to about having unrealistic expectations or misplaced priorities as it concerns marriage. Men aren't the only ones getting a lesson in the importance of marriage and how they need to pursue it.

and since so many LDS are in utah the concept of dating in utah is entirely different than everywhere else yet this stuff is never addressed and we are merely told go snag a wife with little direction on this is supposed to work when the media and the world and church all send three different meanings on how to do this and as a guy it is just downright confusing.

I just linked to a talk that discussed dating and what it is. This rather cuts the legs out of any complaint founded in never. If you want a crash course on the local culture then it needs to happen at the local level. A lesson on 'proper' social interaction is going to vary if it is directed at Kenyans or Americans.

And because I know that you are seeking feedback on social interaction in another thread I'm gonna make this comment: You are bitter and it shows (if in fact you aren't bitter you come across as being such and the following still applies). Bitter people get avoided as they suck all the positive energy out of a room and flood it with negative energy. If the slightest trace of what comes through in your posts above comes through in your face to face interactions with people it is going to be sabotaging your development of relationships with those who don't share your particular bitterness.

[JudoMinja]

Originally Posted by kayne

the point i believe that was trying to be made was if a girl fails to get married she is ok. if a guy fails to get married he better have one heck of a super awesome excuse and even then it could be a long shot in the dark.

just visit a singles ward. the elders quorum lessons have a very high chance of doing what i call defaulting the lesson. in other words they default with ease to this GO GET MARRIED NOW mentality. the bishops push it too. utah has an odd culture of being married within a month of dating. and there is just this general go get married or you are screwed attitude.

look i get it marriage = important. but the amount of pressure is downright absurd.

do the girls get this pressure? no not really. its almost always guys go find a girl and sucker her into marrying you. and i dont find this fair at all. also it seems women by church leaders are almost always put on some epic pedastal and guys are always thrown down. it really is beyond absurd its like girls cannot screw up but guys dont stop screwing up.

i believe this is what he was referring to and i agree. its unfair and it needs to stop. but perhaps i am wrong. perhaps the church leaders are receiving dreams that are saying the vast majority of LDS women are extremely holy and the vast majority of LDS men are not. but if that is the case one of them needs to come out and say that as i am tired of always getting thrown down.

and on marriage nothing is ever said on dating. i am not the only guy that doesnt know how to date really or what is expected. im not the only guy that female interaction has been nerfed greatly by years of porn. even though its not a problem anymore damage was done. and since so many LDS are in utah the concept of dating in utah is entirely different than everywhere else yet this stuff is never addressed and we are merely told go snag a wife with little direction on this is supposed to work when the media and the world and church all send three different meanings on how to do this and as a guy it is just downright confusing.

I want to say a little bit about the two different problems you're identifying here- 1 being the turning of every lesson into a push for marriage, and 2 being the unequal treatment between men and women.

1- Turning every lesson into a push for marriage:

I have seen this as well, but find that this is more a problem with some individuals than it is a prevalent problem throughout all church leadership. There was one particular senior missionary couple who taught an institute class that turned everything into marriage, marriage, marriage- dating, dating, dating- and even worked on playing matchmaker with everyone who attended the class. I was very put off by it and stopped going to institute, because I felt that it was doing me more harm emotionally than it was doing me good spiritually. I got more out of studying the institute lessons on my own than I did out of going to their class.

When the couple changed, though, I went back to institute to test the new teachers out, and it was like stepping into a whole new world. This new couple did an excellent job of teaching the lessons and facilitating discussion, and I really felt the spirit there every Wednesday. I was even bringing my at-the-time one-year-old son with me when I couldn't get a babysitter, and it was no problem at all.

I think that an extra emphasis on marriage with those who are single and of marriageable age is a good and natural thing- It's a focus on where we are at in life right now and a good chance to get advice, feedback, and ideas. But when it is overemphasized and taken to an extreme it becomes problematic. Some members do this, others don't. I just avoid those who are pushy about it and focus on moving at my own pace.

2- The unequal treatment of men and women:

I had one bishop in particular who did exactly what you described, and he was completely open about doing it too. He put women on a pedestal, told us that he thought we were more "holy" and more "spiritually in-tune" than the men and that we "could do no wrong". I thought it was very wrong of him to do this, but he is the only one I've ever seen in a leadership position in the church to make this distinction.

I've moved around my whole life. I've been to many different wards, and for me to have only had one bishop who did this... means the problem isn't as prevalent as you think. For the most part, I -as a woman- have received the same pressures as you. There may be a bit of a separation in that men are the Priesthood holders and considered to be the "family head", so there is a bit more responsibility on your shoulders, but I have many many times been in church meetings where I have been pressured about getting married and/or being prepared for motherhood and being a good wife, etc.

Now to get to the heart of the matter:

There is a clear and obvious trend throughout the world that the average age people get married is going up. In 1981, the average age a woman would marry was 23, for men 25. That age has climbed and in 2009 it was 30 for women and 32 for men. You can read about it here.

Marriage and raising a family is a very important part of our lives, and we need to prioritize properly. There are many many reasons why people remain single, some of them valid and some of them not so much, but the fact of the matter is that people around the world are getting married at a later and later date. Of course our church leaders are concerned about this! Of course they want to address it! And of course they want to remind us of the importance of getting married, want to encourage us to make sure our priorities are straight and that we aren't missing out on the opportunity to marry for the wrong reasons.

Our church is the only church, as far as I know, that places such important emphasis on marriage, and it is because we believe that marriage is continued in the eternities and that it is a requirement for the celestial kingdom. So, there is certainly going to be some added pressure, and there are going to be some individuals who take it to the extreme.

It is up to you though to "own" your current status in life. You need to examine your priorities in life and determine whether or not your reasons for being unmarried are good ones, and be sure that you are doing everything you can on your end to be ready for and pursue a marriage. The pressure would not bother you so much if you were comfortable with yourself and gained a sense of ownership for your situation and your responsibilities.

The same goes for peer-pressure in any other situation. If you are comfortable with who you are, the decisions you have made, and the direction you are going- you won't bow into pressure others put on you. Too much sensitivity into that pressure is a sign that you are still "discovering" yourself and relying too much on outside influences to determine what is right and wrong for you.

[Bracket]

When I was growing up in the LDS Church, I constantly heard that women are more spiritual than men.

[Eowyn]

Originally Posted by Bracket

When I was growing up in the LDS Church, I constantly heard that women are more spiritual than men.

From whom? The membership of the Church, or the GA's of the Church?

My opinion is that women aren't more spiritual, but they are more driven to settle down and procreate. Maybe the reason men hear it more often is because they need to. Women already feel the strong drive internally. That, and our culture is still pretty conservative in that men are expected somewhat to do the asking, whether it comes to dating or marriage proposals.

[Vort]

Originally Posted by Bracket

When I was growing up in the LDS Church, I constantly heard that women are more spiritual than men.

Me, too.

[pam]

I don't know if I agree that women are more spiritual. It's just that women show their emotions more than men do. So perhaps there is a perception that they are.

[kayne]

im glad im not the only one that has noticed that women are holier nonsense that seems common.

Oh and my wife has heard the woman spoken to about having unrealistic expectations or misplaced priorities as it concerns marriage. Men aren't the only ones getting a lesson in the importance of marriage and how they need to pursue it.

that does i admit make me feel better

I just linked to a talk that discussed dating and what it is. This rather cuts the legs out of any complaint founded in never. If you want a crash course on the local culture then it needs to happen at the local level. A lesson on 'proper' social interaction is going to vary if it is directed at Kenyans or Americans.

utah is still socially odd in many respects. dating is perhaps the highlight of it as no other place in america besides possibly idaho to my knowledge can people date and be married in a month. this puts utah in a unique spot there is truely no argueing this point.

Rightly or wrongly in many cultures people talk to, and teach, women different than men. The idea that men can handle a straight talking to while women are more sensitive to harsh language is out there. This is more of that context I was talking about. You're basically insisting that different situations and the different sexes be treated identically in how they are addressed, and while I can see the case for the latter I don't see it for the former.

oh i know cultures as a whole treat both sexes differently and there is a place for that. but my point here being the women getting stuck on a pedastal mentality while guys are not and thus treated as lower or worse and far too often the end result of STOP SINNING YOU LOUSY MEN because ya know that is the only possible reason a girl could remain single is because of guys the girl couldnt have any fault at all in this anywhere at anytime which is a popular assumption from church leaders.

Anyone who puts off or otherwise undervalues the importance of marriage is going to be brought up short in the next life. Once again context is being ignored. Show me where the women are told in the context of putting education ahead of marriage, or that having unrealistic expectations, that it's all honky dory for them.

marriage is important. but simply saying go get married why are you are still single fails to address 99% of the other reasons a person is still single. and again women are usually given the pass.

Attendance at a single's ward is not mandatory, if you dislike the direction and focus of single's wards than don't go to them.

one then faces immediate and instant backlash from people in my own age group....so your solution here is???? i also expect one might face similar reactions as those that are 30 and unmarried and change to a family ward which is another problem.

Singles wards are peculiar units but they are also minority units. Going to a single ward and then talking about 'the Church' as a whole is flawed. And yes they do stress marriage, but what do you expect? Of course they stress marriage more highly than a ward where the vast majority of (eligible) people are already married, Elder's Quorums don't stress the duties of Priests either, they stress the duties and responsibilities of Elders.

how is the age bracket of 18-30 a minority group? singles wards exist outside of utah. furthermore mormons being dominant in utah and utah has an endless amount of singles wards...im not really sure how singles wards fall into a minority group.

also ironically here is the duties of an elder include and possibly in no other place is it more apparent but those duties include the aaronic priesthood duties. and due to a lack of 12-18 year olds its normally elders that fulfill these roles so i do think aaronic priesthood duties should maintain some prevelance.

yes singles wards is ultimately go get married....but all lessons shouldnt default to it. we arent dogs. the time of month doesnt role around and we sniff buts and go at it its far more complicated than that.

And because I know that you are seeking feedback on social interaction in another thread I'm gonna make this comment: You are bitter and it shows (if in fact you aren't bitter you come across as being such and the following still applies). Bitter people get avoided as they suck all the positive energy out of a room and flood it with negative energy. If the slightest trace of what comes through in your posts above comes through in your face to face interactions with people it is going to be sabotaging your development of relationships with those who don't share your particular bitterness.

i appreciate the advice. i dont always intend to come off as bitter. i try to mask some of cynical sarcasm. but i do admit i cant always help it. here on a forum i can come off however i want with little affect on me. but in person i do attempt to mask some of that cynical sarcasm that can sound bitter. not that i am depressed or sad or unhappy. then of course i run into the problem i am not myself and too much of myself gets hidden and i dont always find that a good alternative either. in fact thinking on i suspect that is why those dates in that other thread went wrong. i concealed this part of me entirely too much so i ended up being entirely too shy and quite. since i havent found people out here in utah always the most receptive to one with such a rather dark past once those layers decide to reveal themselves. and i assure it is a rather dark and twisted past which does in affect contribute to what you just mentioned. my ability to bond with new people got killed and i am trying to refind it.

I think that an extra emphasis on marriage with those who are single and of marriageable age is a good and natural thing- It's a focus on where we are at in life right now and a good chance to get advice, feedback, and ideas. But when it is overemphasized and taken to an extreme it becomes problematic. Some members do this, others don't. I just avoid those who are pushy about it and focus on moving at my own pace.

i agree it doesnt need to as pushy as it is. i do agree it can depend on the person but so far ive had more push than in between

I've moved around my whole life. I've been to many different wards, and for me to have only had one bishop who did this... means the problem isn't as prevalent as you think. For the most part, I -as a woman- have received the same pressures as you. There may be a bit of a separation in that men are the Priesthood holders and considered to be the "family head", so there is a bit more responsibility on your shoulders, but I have many many times been in church meetings where I have been pressured about getting married and/or being prepared for motherhood and being a good wife, etc.

my point wasnt so much bishops though ive seen it and heard alot of bishops like this. listen to some GA talks over the past two or three years....women pedastals. guys lucky to get girl.

Now to get to the heart of the matter:

There is a clear and obvious trend throughout the world that the average age people get married is going up. In 1981, the average age a woman would marry was 23, for men 25. That age has climbed and in 2009 it was 30 for women and 32 for men. You can read about it here.

Marriage and raising a family is a very important part of our lives, and we need to prioritize properly. There are many many reasons why people remain single, some of them valid and some of them not so much, but the fact of the matter is that people around the world are getting married at a later and later date. Of course our church leaders are concerned about this! Of course they want to address it! And of course they want to remind us of the importance of getting married, want to encourage us to make sure our priorities are straight and that we aren't missing out on the opportunity to marry for the wrong reasons.

i do agree address and yea i am aware of that trend i did ironically just take a sociology marriage class where this was discussed. i also took a dating institute class. and somehow i still feel like i only learned how to keep a relationship not actually start one. i just dont always think it seems like it is addressed correctly. a common theme they use is guys and there toys. or too busy having fun being single. you know a lot of guys and our toys play with them because we have tried to form connections but here it is friday at 9 pm and having failed to create a connection its games or porn. quite frankly games is the healthies choice. these talks tend to ignore the person that tries or doesnt know how this dating thing works given we all have this over romatic idea in our heads of dating....its really a lot more complicated than just focus on dating men youll get it right.

It is up to you though to "own" your current status in life. You need to examine your priorities in life and determine whether or not your reasons for being unmarried are good ones, and be sure that you are doing everything you can on your end to be ready for and pursue a marriage. The pressure would not bother you so much if you were comfortable with yourself and gained a sense of ownership for your situation and your responsibilities.

The same goes for peer-pressure in any other situation. If you are comfortable with who you are, the decisions you have made, and the direction you are going- you won't bow into pressure others put on you. Too much sensitivity into that pressure is a sign that you are still "discovering" yourself and relying too much on outside influences to determine what is right and wrong for you.

while we all have our secrets. i do possess a few that outclass the vast majority of folks and that is fine though occassionally annoying. however one particular problem with being myself is...oh you were on a mission during that time you say....oh yea i was getting stoned and robbing wal mart....ROCK ON BUDDY!!!. regardless of that being the past or not it tends to turn people off. yes yes i shouldnt care about such judgemental folks but thats sadly how ive had people react. even had someone hate me because i did laundry on sunday....why the horror in a place with 8 of us living here doing laundry whenever i could....add this to stuff i would normally keep secret anyway and i find i end up concealing a lot more about myself than i want too. two prime points....seriously why does everyone here love disney? also i swear people have invented games here for large crowds completely clueless to the fact that these are poor substitutes for beer and drugs. i swear ive played games here that i would of touched while stoned its like doing stuff that is meant only for the stoned brain and as a former stoner i sit there in awe watching it transpire. i just have a hard time relating to this kind of stuff. dont confuse me i am not saying beer is required for a good time but there are simply some things that go good with beer and doing fake substitutes is laughably crazy.