What are you looking for...

Maxel · #1 (**permalink**) 01-25-2009, 08:11 PM

... in a dating relationship?
... in a friendship?
... in a marriage?

So, I feel led by the spirit tonight and I was going to write something solely about potential spouses, but I feel it should be expanded a little bit.

I think a lot of the angst and anxiety and agony that the YSA of the Church experience over dating is avoidable, if we could come to terms with the reasons behind dating relationships and marriage relationships. Knowledge is power, after all, and godly knowledge is greater power.

I want this discussion to be open to everyone, so feel free to contribute! Also, I'm no expert (not even close) on these subjects, so please take everything I say- and anyone else says- with a grain of salt.

First of all, I think it's helpful to define the level of emotional commitment that we, as mortal humans, put into each kind of relationship (friendship, dating/courting, and marriage) and rank them based on that.

Friendship: Involves the expenditure of time, effort, and understanding to create a relationship that ideally lasts the rest of two people's lives. In a healthy friendship, both people are working to overcome obstacles of social, spiritual, and other differences. The ideal product of a friendship is a 'friend': someone who supports you in your righteous endeavors, is with you to mourn when you mourn and comfort you when you need comforting. Finally, a friend is someone who can rejoice with you when you are rejoicing.
Purpose: To expand our own souls, and increase the number of people our souls have affected and the number of people who have affected our own souls in a positive manner. To help create a network of emotional support.

Dating: Involves the expenditure of time, effort, understanding, and monetary goods (more so than a friendship) to create a relationship that hopefully lasts the rest of two people's lives. It is unique in that it can only be healthily enacted by a man and a woman; precluding same-gender relationships and third members in the relationship. There are three phases: dating, courtship, and engagement.

Dating: In the dating stage, a young man and young woman bend their schedules and efforts in an attempt to be around each other frequently in a variety of settings. To be healthy dating, there must be an adequate mixture of spontaneous and premeditated activities. There should also be an expenditure, within reason, of monetary possessions during said activities. Any one person may healthily have more than one dating relationship at a time, although the lines between dating and courtship are not set in stone. A dating relationship is not a contract of any kind, regardless of its length or emotional commitment.

Courtship: In the courtship stage, a young man and young woman have been dating for a time sufficient to know they want to pursue a more serious and lasting relationship. When courting, the two parties have no other dating relationships (they're 'going steady' or 'going out'). Courtships are perfect for making sure one's partner is truly the kind of person one would like to marry. Courtships are geared and designed to lead to engagement and marriage.

Engagement: In the engagement stage, a young man and young woman have publicly declared their love for one another, and have entered into a mutually understood contract of marriage. Engagement is the time between the agreement of the contract (i.e., the proposal) and the wedding day itself. It is a time for the couple to further work out any minor or major differences that might cause friction in the married life inasmuch as they are able to. Engagement is one of the most trying times in terms of sexual purity.

In all the stages of dating, there is more emotional commitment than is present in a regular friendship. Dating implies an attraction of one of the parties to the other on a level deeper than merely thinking the other is a 'son or daughter of God that I don't mind hanging out with'- there's some sort of spiritual and emotional attraction, and hopefully some physical as well. Courtship implies a deeper attraction and a deeper desire for emotional closeness, while engagement declares a desire for the deepest kind of emotional attraction and closeness that exists among humans: being married.
Purpose: The purpose of dating (in all its stages) is twofold: self-discovery (what kind of person do I want to marry; what kind of person am I compatible with) and finding 'the right person' (or, the person that you'll marry. President Kimball said that the idea of everyone having a soul mate is of the devil; although there are certain cases where people have soul mates).

Marriage: Involves the expenditure of every facet of a person's being to foster an emotional, spiritual, and physical connectivity that surpasses all other voluntary interpersonal relationships. Marriage is the most powerful and lasting relationship we make in this life: although all friendships are in some degrees eternal, marriage is ETERNAL. It is essential to one's spiritual progress, both in this life and in the life to come. Not surprisingly, it is both the most demanding and most rewarding of all relationships immediately affecting most Young Single Adults.
Purpose: To experience the most rewarding relationship of all. Particularly, the marriage relationship is the only relationship that sexual expression and relationships can be safely experienced, and is the only relationship that can healthily create another person through parenthood. Finally, celestial marriage is vital to eternal progression.

NOTE: I don't know much about parenthood, so I'm not covering that here (plus, there's not any point, as this topic is about relationships we can choose: you can't choose who your child will be).

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So, now that we've set the guidelines out for what the different relationships entail (feel free to comment/disagree if you feel something is lacking), we can move forward to discuss what we each desire to get out of the different relationships.

Personally, I don't feel the need for more friends. I doubt many people visiting this forum do- I'm going out on a limb and saying that most of us are currently in/looking for a dating relationship and would love to be engaged or married.

The following is a summary of my sister's account of the dating atmosphere of the area I live in:

'In the area I live there's a dearth of young men to take young women out on dates. There's simply not enough to go around, and the men we do have are usually not as spiritually minded as the women around here would like. The guys aren't bad, but their focus is more on school or sports than on getting married. Any guys who are spiritually mature and ready to get married get snatched pretty quickly.'

Personally, I agree with her mostly. I've heard this sentiment echoed by young women across the country, and I believe the prophets' imposition to men to 'be worthy of the priesthood' has something to do with that.

It's late and I have to go do homework; I want to leave the floor open for discussion and reflection.

Pan_52 · #2 (**permalink**) 01-27-2009, 09:12 PM

Well, that was very extensive and thorough, but you make some valid points. I will answer to the best of my ability, though it probably won't be nearly as detailed or in-depth. Still, I will try.

Friendship: I noticed that there tends to be two different kinds of people when it comes to these things. These aren't facts or science and of course I'm not speaking for everyone!!! These are just very general observations. First off, there are people who have tons of good friends but no really close ones. Then there are people who only have a couple friends but are very, very close to them. I fall into the latter category. In friendship, I'm looking for someone that can make me laugh and vise versa. It's almost a must that we share interests. Video games! Star Wars! Battlestar Galactica! D&D! Anime! Nerdy stuff. I've had friends that aren't into those things, but we never became close and eventually fell out of touch. I also like trust and support. I like to be able to have emotional conversations with my friends, but only when I need really need to. I think that's pretty much it.

Dating: Just like every girl, I like a guy to sweep me off my feet - but first and foremost, I want a friend! I am a huge believer in the idea that friendship leads to love. Besides, if there is no chemistry for a relationship, then at least I get a friend out of it. Again, I'd like him to share some interests with me. I also like when a guy makes me feel special. There reaches a point in the dating period when I want to know that he doesn't just see me as a friend. I have been forever cursed to remain in the "friend box" with men, it seems. If a guy likes me, I want to know! Some casual or light flirting is nice. Sense of humor is wonderful. Intellectual conversation is a huge plus. It's not a must, but even if a guy doesn't share my interests, intellectual conversation will pretty much win me over. I think the rest is just typical girl stuff, to be honest. Flowers, moonlight, hand-holding, yadda yadda, moving on.

Marriage: Okay, marriage is obviously far more serious than dating, and so my expectations are higher. All the rules from dating apply of course. When I am looking for a possible husband, I want a man who is very romantic but also very spiritual. A strong testimony of the church would be lovely. I'd want to get sealed. I'd also want him to show me that he is not only spiritually mature, but mature in other ways as well. He needs to be ready for life! For bills, jobs, apartments/houses, living paycheck to paycheck, supporting a future family. He's going to have to realize that he will probably need to give up those nightly romps with the boys to basketball practice, or at least limit them to a couple nights a week. Because you know what? A man needs to have priorities. I'm not going to sit at home reading scriptures to a crying baby while my hubby is off perfecting his high score in skeeball. So basically, a loving, mature, spiritual, devoted man.

That's all I can think of, at any rate. I'd also like to make it clear that I don't ask for what I can't give. So when I say that I want my husband to limit his hang-out time and get his priorities straight, I only ask because I would/will do the same! That rule goes for everything I ask. And I agree with your sister, for the most part.

But yeah, those are my opinions of what I expect from relationships. If I think of anything else, I'll add it later.

Maxel · #3 (**permalink**) 01-28-2009, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pan_52

Well, that was very extensive and thorough, but you make some valid points. I will answer to the best of my ability, though it probably won't be nearly as detailed or in-depth. Still, I will try.

Thank you! The purpose of this thread is to inspire conversation and encourage education about the realities of friendships and dating. Thank you for jumping in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pan_52

Friendship: I noticed that there tends to be two different kinds of people when it comes to these things. These aren't facts or science and of course I'm not speaking for everyone!!! These are just very general observations. First off, there are people who have tons of good friends but no really close ones. Then there are people who only have a couple friends but are very, very close to them.

Good point. I guess I kind of fall into an unfortunate synthesis of the two: I don't have many friends, and no really close ones. I've always been a lone wolf, but I think it's more due to mental health issues than my personality. My father's the same way.

Which does raise the question: in which ways does healthy mental status contribute to friendships? And I don't just mean a lack of mental health issues, but having a healthy, working, active mind. It seems to me that friendships, being interpersonal, multicultural, and dynamic, would require two people who keep their minds as fit as possible so as to avoid unnecessary drama within the friendship. Thoughts?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pan_52

Dating: Just like every girl, I like a guy to sweep me off my feet - but first and foremost, I want a friend! I am a huge believer in the idea that friendship leads to love.

I've always thought the same thing. In fact, one tacit conclusion of the way I set up the first post is that each level of relationship must build on the previous one to be healthy. In other words, normal healthy relationships develop from friendship --> dating --> marriage (if marriage is ever reached). Thoughts?

sweetandsour · #4 (**permalink**) 01-28-2009, 08:53 PM

thats alot of deep stuff...

i guess iv never really gone so deep. i know i want friends ppl i can talk to. help me through things.

but mostly i want someone there when i wake up in the morning someone to hold me when i fall asleep. someone to lift me up when im down. but mostly someone as spiritually prepared for the temple as i try to be.

the strugel is getting there though right? guys dont speak there mind, and neither do we. with no comunication how do u know if they like u or not. iv had a couple things like that happen as of late. ya know they act like it but they never say it and then all of assuden they r gone, with no explination

Maxel · #5 (**permalink**) 01-28-2009, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweetandsour

thats alot of deep stuff...

i guess iv never really gone so deep. i know i want friends ppl i can talk to. help me through things.

but mostly i want someone there when i wake up in the morning someone to hold me when i fall asleep. someone to lift me up when im down. but mostly someone as spiritually prepared for the temple as i try to be.

Amen...

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweetandsour

the strugel is getting there though right? guys dont speak there mind, and neither do we. with no comunication how do u know if they like u or not. iv had a couple things like that happen as of late. ya know they act like it but they never say it and then all of assuden they r gone, with no explination

I am fully aware of the tendency for guys not to speak their mind or approach dating from a mature viewpoint... I go to Elder's Quorum and see it every week. I don't mean to sound judgmental, but that's the way it is.

The purpose for this is for everyone to learn more about relationships, and I think learning about communication might help too.

Maxel · #6 (**permalink**) 02-01-2009, 01:49 AM

*Shameless bump*

There's been actual activity on this forum in the last couple days; I'm really, really hoping to see some activity in this thread. Not through some sense of megalomania, but because I really feel this is a serious issue for the LDS YSA, and I think discussion helps foster knowledge. This is a serious topic for me.

Heavenguard · #7 (**permalink**) 02-16-2009, 10:24 AM

Okay, I'll bite. :3 Keeping in mind this is not an LDS POV, so things it may not turn out to be be as applicable for YSA, but I don't think we differ so much, really...

My observation would be that although these are different steps, there's something of a gradiented timeline to them. As Maxel said:
In other words, normal healthy relationships develop from friendship --> dating --> marriage (if marriage is ever reached).
But even in each step, there's a difference of expectation in the early stages of a friendship, and a friendship (if maintained) an old one, and a pair who've only started dating, and one that's been together for years.

I'm actually always open to making new friends. Always, always, always. I could say that I wouldn't need more friends, I do have plenty enough. However, you never know who you meet who will become a really good or 'best' friend. My bestest bestest bestest friend ever, I've known her since about Gr. 5. My two next closest friends I've known since high school, and the other about a year ago.

Dating (in Maxel's definition, I think "seeing" is more common use, though?) is something I've actually never really thought of until about three weeks ago when I met someone and started seeing him. I always thought that whoever I got involved with would be someone that I'd get to know as a friend first, and build from that. However, I have to say that this fellow has been, actually, quite the gentleman about it. We talk a lot, do light activities together - we're getting to know each other. I really appreciate that he hasn't put any "moves" on me yet, while I try to figure him for who he is. I think it is both wise and considerate, for the guy and for the girl. If it doesn't work, the guy doesn't end up investing too much, and the girl isn't pressured either.

While the line between dating and courtship (which I think is more commonly called dating now, I hardly ever hear "courtship" these days... though I like it!) can get fuzzy, the one thing I've learned is that both people need to be very clear which side of the line they're on, and what are the expectations once there. When both people are on the same page - and know it, there will be less anxiety, frustrations, disappointments, anger (fights), and the like.

Well, I'm not married yet, so I can't say much to this fact... except that I do hope for it one day :3
But again, I think discussion expectations and laying down household ground rules is very important -- before reaching this stage. Kinda like a pre-nuptual agreement, only not concerning assets.

Maxel · #8 (**permalink**) 02-16-2009, 01:15 PM

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