re: Mormons & Evangelicals Together - Convicted Civility

[prisonchaplain]

Warrior...just what is it that you believe Robert Millet (the BYU dean) fell for?

[AngelLynn]

Originally Posted by Book_of_Mormon_Warrior

You know I almost fell for this (nothing against you PC, just "Standing Together). As I said, I almost fell for this, until I clicked on "Recommended Readings" under the "Resources" tab, and what do I find? A link to "Living Hope Ministries", producers of the drivel known as "The Bible vs. the Book of Mormon" and other assorted anti-Mormon garbage. I think some LDS are too eager to be accepted by the evangelical community and will latch on to any ray of hope.

I truely believe there are some people that are sincere in their hearts about having convicted civility, Warrior. This forum is proof of it. Another example of it was when the Catholics rose in defense of the LDS church in the backlash that followed Prop. 8. While the Catholic church admited there were doctrinal issues that divided us, they showed on this issue we held common ground.

I don't believe Evengelicals will change overnight on how they see or believe our faith is. I've been looking up on it and it appears that Rev. Gregory Johnson has taken some flack from Evengelicals because of his position of being inclusive to LDS. Do I expect Evengelicals to accept us right off? No. As years of Anti-Mormon literature and Anti-Mormon teachings have overwhelmed them which is why we need this discourse to attempt to understand each other.

I can understand the need from all sides to find common ground as we are all God's children and eventually we will have to stand before Him and be accountable for how we treated our fellow brothers and sisters.

[Book_of_Mormon_Warrior]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

Warrior...just what is it that you believe Robert Millet (the BYU dean) fell for?

You don't need to give me his credentials, I know who Mr. Millet is. I think Mr. Millet may have fell for a very devious attempt, not to convert him, but to use him as a tool for converting other Mormons.

If you go to the "Standing Together Ministries" website and go to the "Resources" tab, and click on "Recommended Readings", the prominent link at the bottom is "Living Hope Ministries". "Living Hope Ministries" is very much an anti-Mormon fellowship based out of Brigham City, Ut. If "Standing Together" was about respectful interfaith dialogue why would they recommend the site of a church that champions itself on being "anti-cult"?

[Book_of_Mormon_Warrior]

Originally Posted by AngelLynn

I truely believe there are some people that are sincere in their hearts about having convicted civility, Warrior. This forum is proof of it. Another example of it was when the Catholics rose in defense of the LDS church in the backlash that followed Prop. 8. While the Catholic church admited there were doctrinal issues that divided us, they showed on this issue we held common ground.

I don't believe Evengelicals will change overnight on how they see or believe our faith is. I've been looking up on it and it appears that Rev. Gregory Johnson has taken some flack from Evengelicals because of his position of being inclusive to LDS. Do I expect Evengelicals to accept us right off? No. As years of Anti-Mormon literature and Anti-Mormon teachings have overwhelmed them which is why we need this discourse to attempt to understand each other.

I can understand the need from all sides to find common ground as we are all God's children and eventually we will have to stand before Him and be accountable for how we treated our fellow brothers and sisters.

I do understand that there are Evangelicals that are respectful and do want real civil dialogue. I am just suspect of the "Standing Together Ministries" motives, for the reason I detailed in my reply to PC. Why is it so important that Evangelicals or anyone "accept" you anyways?

[AngelLynn]

Originally Posted by Book_of_Mormon_Warrior

I do understand that there are Evangelicals that are respectful and do want real civil dialogue. I am just suspect of the "Standing Together Ministries" motives, for the reason I detailed in my reply to PC. Why is it so important that Evangelicals or anyone "accept" you anyways?

I am not really careing if they accept me or not, BW. I do think some understanding should be met. You're probably right in some ways as I am remembering JSH 1:6

6 For, notwithstanding the great love which the converts to these different faiths expressed at the time of their conversion, and the great zeal manifested by the respective clergy, who were active in getting up and promoting this extraordinary scene of religious feeling, in order to have everybody converted, as they were pleased to call it, let them join what sect they pleased; yet when the converts began to file off, some to one party and some to another, it was seen that the seemingly good feelings of both the priests and the converts were more pretended than real; for a scene of great confusion and bad feeling ensued—priest contending against priest, and convert against convert; so that all their good feelings one for another, if they ever had any, were entirely lost in a strife of words and a contest about opinions.

I have no idea if Rev. Gregory Johnson is being sincere. I hope he is and that his friendship with Robert Millet is truely geuine.

And I looked up the link you pointed out. Short of saying I don't know truely what anyones true intentions are. I do understand that you believe that Robert Millet is being taken advantage of and that is possibly true as well. Anything is possible. It is just part me thinks that we shouldn't throw out everything with the dishwater.

[prisonchaplain]

Originally Posted by Book_of_Mormon_Warrior

You don't need to give me his credentials, I know who Mr. Millet is. I think Mr. Millet may have fell for a very devious attempt, not to convert him, but to use him as a tool for converting other Mormons.

If you go to the "Standing Together Ministries" website and go to the "Resources" tab, and click on "Recommended Readings", the prominent link at the bottom is "Living Hope Ministries". "Living Hope Ministries" is very much an anti-Mormon fellowship based out of Brigham City, Ut. If "Standing Together" was about respectful interfaith dialogue why would they recommend the site of a church that champions itself on being "anti-cult"?

Oh, I think Rev. Johnson would be thrilled if Millet converted to evangelical Christianity. Likewise, Millet would be honored to baptize Johnson into the restored gospel. Convicted civility is not a renunciation of cross-evangelization.

Mormons (especially missionaries) will continue to knock on evangelical doors, and if given an opening, introduce the householders to your faith. Likewise, evangelicals, from dialogue-conversers like myself, to the most "fire and brimstone" street preachers that harrass your conventioners, will continue to welcome conversions to our churches.

IMHO, the foundation of convicted civility is that we should talk and listen to each other openly and with Christian love. We should trust the Holy spirit to do the convicting and converting. If we're confident in our faith, our "salt" will be the saltiest, and our "light" will be the brightest, and we don't have to shout, become angry or defensive.

I don't believe Millet fell for anything. He found a friend in the evangelical movement. Johnson may still hope to see some converts from the LDS faith, but if, in the process, he denounces the lies, rudeness, hatred and obnoxiousness of the worst evangelical proselytizers, and if he upholds that article of your faith that says regardless of my desire to convert someone, I will allow them to worship according to the dictates of their conscience, then my guess is most of the "fruit" of his efforts at conversion will be that which has already fallen from the vine anyway.

[Loudmouth_Mormon]

And if we're going to inquire about Millet falling for something, we should also ask who pulled the wool over our church leader's eyes such that they allowed Ravi Zacharias to preach to us in our own tabernacle.

BoMWarrior, of course Standing Together disagrees with us, and agrees with many of our critics. They're not pretending otherwise, as far as I can tell. The deal is, if we can get together with our critics and learn about each other, we're better off than if we sit there and believe they're our enemies.

Yeah, the lady at a nearby mega-church was struggling with the concept of convicted civility as she taught uncharitable and sensationalistic things in her 'are mormons christian' class. But if she was to follow the precepts PC is talking about, maybe she'd invite a mormon to come present something at her next class.

I think they call such things "interfaith dialogue". Mormons as a whole stink at it, and we have ever since the gospel was restored. It's not all our fault, much of the rest of Christianity reacts to mormons like a vampire seeing a cross. It looks like BoM warrior is sort of their mirror image, and that's a shame. Millet has the right idea.

LM

[AngelLynn]

Originally Posted by Loudmouth_Mormon

I think they call such things "interfaith dialogue". Mormons as a whole stink at it, and we have ever since the gospel was restored. It's not all our fault, much of the rest of Christianity reacts to mormons like a vampire seeing a cross.
LM

Well it's a little hard to be good at it when the LDS past has been filled with such violence and vengence.

However, we are in a more peaceful time and it seems that people now resort to words rather than blows. Although spending a lot of time learning how to write in writing classes I can easily say that words can cause just as much damage and can be even worse than a gun. A gun kills and maims but words can leave a lasting impression on a soul.

The mission hasn't changed, both are out to convert souls to Christ. I truely belive that President Obama's words are correct about what he said about not having one's hand clenched in a fist and having it open instead.

The sprit is so much more open on both sides if we stop having contention with each other and having an open dialogue with each other.

[Islander]

I think LDS have in general more tolerance and genuine acceptance of other faiths. It rarely works in reverse. We embrace knowledge and insight and we acknowledge that truth belongs to God and he reveals a portion to all that seek him. We engage Muslim and Jewish scholars, researchers of all persuasions in vast number of disciplines. We simply are not afraid of knowledge.

I have relatives from other denominations and I have been married for a decade and they still harass me now and again, even behind my back. They have nothing bad to say but they still speculate about my "other wives" and that it can not be true that I do not beat my wife with a stick, scream at her now and again and slap her around for going over her allowance...you know, the typical stuff.

They no longer say anything to me about hell but they remind my wife time and again.

[Book_of_Mormon_Warrior]

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain

Oh, I think Rev. Johnson would be thrilled if Millet converted to evangelical Christianity. Likewise, Millet would be honored to baptize Johnson into the restored gospel. Convicted civility is not a renunciation of cross-evangelization.

Mormons (especially missionaries) will continue to knock on evangelical doors, and if given an opening, introduce the householders to your faith. Likewise, evangelicals, from dialogue-conversers like myself, to the most "fire and brimstone" street preachers that harrass your conventioners, will continue to welcome conversions to our churches.

IMHO, the foundation of convicted civility is that we should talk and listen to each other openly and with Christian love. We should trust the Holy spirit to do the convicting and converting. If we're confident in our faith, our "salt" will be the saltiest, and our "light" will be the brightest, and we don't have to shout, become angry or defensive.

I don't believe Millet fell for anything. He found a friend in the evangelical movement. Johnson may still hope to see some converts from the LDS faith, but if, in the process, he denounces the lies, rudeness, hatred and obnoxiousness of the worst evangelical proselytizers, and if he upholds that article of your faith that says regardless of my desire to convert someone, I will allow them to worship according to the dictates of their conscience, then my guess is most of the "fruit" of his efforts at conversion will be that which has already fallen from the vine anyway.

By placing "Living Hope Ministries" as a recommended website Pastor Johnson is engaging in double-speak... saying he denounces hate-filled diatribes against Mormons while lending support to a group that engages in such activity through their video productions.