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[HiJolly]

Originally Posted by AlexanderX

The average missionary baptized more than 13 people in the late 80's. It is less than 6 now.

That's a dramatic decrease by anyone's standard.

Would be, if the numbers weren't falsly inflated by dishonest Mission Presidents and Missionaries in central and south America. As it is, I'm glad they got that figured out and have addressed it.

Originally Posted by AlexanderX

It is a factual thing to say. Missionaries cannot continue a discussion unless they have the environment controlled. This is common kowledge to anyone who has actually served a mission.

I served a full-time mission, and it is certainly NOT "common knowledge", because it isn't true. How ridiculous, as if we *could* control such a thing. We can advise, but that's not the satanic 'control' you speak of. How antithetical to the Gospel! You're wrong on this one, even if missionaries tried it, they couldn't do it. It's absurd on the face of it, AX.

Originally Posted by AlexanderX

If critics are there with an investigator, ready to test missionary claims, the missionaries are instructed to reschedule for another day. Of course, their explanation is that the "spirit" isn't around when "anti-mormonism" is around.

Sounds like a valid explanation, to me. But then, I happen to BELIEVE in the "spirit". I suppose that would make a difference, eh? Why did you join the Church, AX? Did you believe?

I happen to believe that the spirit is more important than information, because anyone can doubt information, but the spirit has a way of revealing truth, a very special thing.

Originally Posted by AlexanderX

No, you said I was wrong to say there are more ex-Mormons than Mormons. But I am right about that, and the statistics support this. Most people who get baptized end up leaving the Church, usually sooner than later. Of the 40+ people I baptized, I know of only 7 who are still active.

Oh, I just love this! (just kidding -- actually, I think it's damningly dishonest of you) So, ok, now anyone that doesn't go to Church is an ex-Mormon, now? What a crock. I was actually interested in your numbers, up until now. You are factually incorrect. There are not, and never has been, more ex-Mormons than Mormons. Period. Sheesh.

...and I'm NOT just being defensive, or brain-washed, or whatever excuse you'll pull out of your statistical "damn lies" bag next. I know practically every Mormon I've talked to that USED to be inactive, has said that they always knew the Church was true. Then they explain why nevertheless they didn't want to attend. Some pretty interesting stories, there.

Originally Posted by AlexanderX

Addressing the problem how?

Sending Apostles there to directly control the Mission Presidents on-site, as it were, mainly. You've heard of that, right?

Originally Posted by AlexanderX

The problem is that missionaries rush investigators through the process as quickly as possible. They presume to know what an investigator should and shouldn't know before making an educated decision.

Well, all I can say is, it's a good thing the Church is true and God endorses it, or I'd be in the insane asylum. The missionary program knows what information people need to know to exercise FAITH, as per Biblical doctrine. And they teach that.

Just like me, they are welcome to study and learn all they want on their own time, both before and after their baptisms. If they want to. I regret that most LDS don't seem to want to, but that's their call.

Information is NOT hidden, nor "controlled", in some diabolical, Orwellian conspiracy. It is there for those who seek it, I KNOW--- I've LIVED it. And when I learn of interesting, new Church history, it has never yet meant that the Church wasn't true -- it just meant that I had new things to learn, and possibly old mistaken ideas to purge.

I love God, and the Church. What a wonderful combination!

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

PS. I encourage you, AlexanderX, to read my post in the "personal beleifs" area of this board, under the subject "The Church". My post is, I think, on page 3 and is titled "HiJolly comes clean". My faith is not simple.

HiJolly

[Hemidakota]

Originally Posted by AlexanderX

Because most members are inactive?

Not everyone knows about YOU TUBE.

[Hemidakota]

Originally Posted by AlexanderX

Are you serious? Church membership figures are horrific when it comes to activity. This is not strictly limited to S. America either. I know this from experience in every ward I have worked in. Check any ward membership roll. In my ward in Atlanta there were nearly a thousand people who had been at some point in their lives, baptized LDS. Yet, we could only fill up 75% of the pews each sunday. On my mission in Madrid there were supposedly tens of thousands of members, yet when Gordon B. Hinckley came to give a talk with three other GAs, we only managed to get about 2500 LDS to show up, about 15% of which were missionaries from all the missions.

David Stewart over at Cumoroah.com estimates that the Church is about 35% active worldwide. So it is a bit misleading to keep saying the Church has 13 million strong. I doubt we even have five million. One thing is for sure. The internet is killing the Church. More information is available and it is easier to access now. People don't jump into things as easily as they once did. They want to investigate it. Not just the good things, but they also want to get testimonies from people who used to be a part of the organization, and unfortunately, there are more ex-Mormons in the world today than there are Mormons.

Show me a church today that can do better for humanity? Well? Beside that, your stats are incorrect. Next time, spend time on a church site vice someone's bias opinions for truths.

[Truegrits]

Hemidakota:

Not everyone knows about YOU TUBE.

Excellent point. I know about it, but have only visited 2>3 times.

[AlexanderX]

Would be, if the numbers weren't falsly inflated by dishonest Mission Presidents and Missionaries in central and south America. As it is, I'm glad they got that figured out and have addressed it.

What an outrageous charge.

Where is your evidence that mission presidents and missionaries in south and central Americas are inveting membership figures? How did this conspiracy begin?

I served a full-time mission, and it is certainly NOT "common knowledge", because it isn't true.

It is true. Missionaries are not to teach unless they have the environment controled. If the immediate environment is not to their advantage, they always ask if they can come back another time when they can be alone with the investigator.

How ridiculous, as if we *could* control such a thing.

We can, and we do. My brother-in-law is taking the discussions right now. The missionaries absolutely refuse to teach him when his ex-Mormon friend is present.

We can advise, but that's not the satanic 'control' you speak of.

Advise what? We can request to come back another time. It has the same effect. Missionaries are not knowledgable about the gospel in any sense that would allow them to successfully defend it in the event of critical feedback. They are, after all, generally a bunch of 19 year old kids. They are training to read a script and bear their testimony; the idea is that the "spirit" does all the work with the good feelings. Missionaries are taught to convince the investigator that the good feelings are from God and therefore they should get baptized.

How antithetical to the Gospel! You're wrong on this one, even if missionaries tried it, they couldn't do it. It's absurd on the face of it, AX.

No, it is true, and it goes to the core of the Mormon method. That is what missionaries are taught at the MTC. I should know, I taught there.

Sounds like a valid explanation, to me. But then, I happen to BELIEVE in the "spirit". I suppose that would make a difference, eh? Why did you join the Church, AX? Did you believe?

Today we know through science that emotions are not the basis for rational thought. Missionaries are convincing people that their feelings indicate some knid of divine revelation from on high.this is why people join for the short term. Most of the stronger Mormons are thos raised in the Church, where they have a social/family grounding. In other words, the Church can better control what information they come in contact with.

I happen to believe that the spirit is more important than information, because anyone can doubt information, but the spirit has a way of revealing truth, a very special thing.

Do you have any idea how irrational that sounds? Would you be open enough to investigators to tell them this? Try telling an investigator that the spirit is more important than information. That might be your conviction, but most people think it is silly, and missionaries are not being open enough by telling them that this is essentially what it all boils down to. A conviction that the Church is true, in spite of the information.

So, ok, now anyone that doesn't go to Church is an ex-Mormon, now?

You seem to keep ignoring the figures from Chile and Mexico. That 80% was not only inactive, they no longer identified themselves as LDS. And yes, the same holds true for Mormons everywhere. Oh I know there are some here and there who are inactive and eventually reactivate themselves, but these are the exceptions, not the rule. Every reliable survey on the issue has proved this.

and I'm NOT just being defensive, or brain-washed, or whatever excuse you'll pull out of your statistical "damn lies" bag next

Well you said you would accept the facts if I presented the statistical data. I guess you weren't serious. I don't think you're bnrainwashed. I think you explained your problem already, which is to deny valid information in favor of juicy feelings. Anyone can induce good feelings if they know how. That doesn't make them the "only true" whatever.

I know practically every Mormon I've talked to that USED to be inactive, has said that they always knew the Church was true

Mormon myth that is never backed up with evidence. It is one of those myths that Mormons start to help themselves deal with the fact that most people who pray about the Book of Mormon, simply don't feel like it is from God. Oh I am sure there are some minor cases where people say this, but this is what one would expect when someone is trying to find acceptance back into the Momron social pipeline. This is the kind of thing that they would have to say to find acceptance again.On my mission we were able to get at least 800-900 people to read and pray with us. Only about 10% said they felt good, and only 10% of that group ended up active after 15 years.

What a crock. I was actually interested in your numbers, up until now. You are factually incorrect.

No I'm not. You were looking for a reason to ignore the numbers, and now you've managed to fabricate one. Its called confirmation bias in psychological terms. I've presented hard data, you've presented nothing but more folklore.

There are not, and never has been, more ex-Mormons than Mormons. Period. Sheesh.

This is reality to anyone willing to accept the data. Ask any ward clerk.

Sending Apostles there to directly control the Mission Presidents on-site, as it were, mainly. You've heard of that, right?

"Control" in the Church I understand well. But if an apostle can't control a rebel MP from afar, there is nothing he can do up close and personal. And where is your data confirming your outrageous claim that the entire S. American continent is running rampant with amoral Mission Presidents and missionaries?

Well, all I can say is, it's a good thing the Church is true and God endorses it, or I'd be in the insane asylum. The missionary program knows what information people need to know to exercise FAITH, as per Biblical doctrine. And they teach that.

But they don't give much information at all, only a little information that they feel the investigator should know. There is no balance to what is taught. The discussions are rigged to make the Church sound perfect, but none of the negative stuff is even acknowledged. How is that moral or just? The end justifies the means? You see, everyone with any common sense knows that it isn't moral or just, and this is why the Church suffers from so many ex-Mormons who are frustrated, feeling like they have had a fast one pulled over them.

Just like me, they are welcome to study and learn all they want on their own time, both before and after their baptisms. If they want to. I regret that most LDS don't seem to want to, but that's their call.

Nonsense. Sure, you can't stop anyone from studying, but it is NOT encouraged. This is why the Church is trying so hard to make sure members read only Church approved materials. Anything else is called "anti-Mormonism" and treated as if it were satan incarnate. I remember attending a FAIR conference back in 2002 and we were going to address an anti-Mormon book so I brought 20 copies so the apologists could tackle it chapter by chapter. When I arrived, some Mormons thought I was evil for carrying the books and the Mormon family I stayed with didn't want me to bring the books in the house. They had to stay out in the car. They are scared to death of information that might cause them to think and reevaluate what they thought they knew to be true. I mean since when do feelings outweight facts? That's irrational.

Information is NOT hidden, nor "controlled", in some diabolical, Orwellian conspiracy.

Oh really? Then why is it that the Kirtland Egyptian Papers, are not out in the open for independent examination? Anyone who examines them will quickly arrive to the conclusion that Joseph Smith could not translate ancient documents. I have photos of them and can see this clearly.

It is there for those who seek it, I KNOW--- I've LIVED it. And when I learn of interesting, new Church history, it has never yet meant that the Church wasn't true

Of course not. Because you learn it from Church sources. The Church has santized its history. This has been an established fact by independent historians. Church teaching manuals refer to Brigham Young's "wife" without ever indicating he had multiple wives. Sure, it is not hiding the fact that he was polygamous, but why acknoeledge it if you don't have to?

I love God, and the Church. What a wonderful combination!

And your faith would not be "under attack" if it were not for the fact that it was engaged in willfull attempts at converting others to your system of belief, without providing an adequate amount of information. They resent the Church for the same reason they resent scam artists and used car dealers who sell people things while neglecting to tell them important information that would otherwise dissuade them from buying.

Calling everyone who raises the fact s"hate filled" and anti" whatever, is just a rhetorical technique used by those who cannot debate the issues intelligently. Even more, it is another control mechanism that the Church has used to keep members away from any information that is critical of the Church. If anyone asks a critical question and presents negative data, the typical Mormon responds indignantly with yap about satanic anti-Mormonism. As if that ever counted as an intellectual response. It is an emotional response. That's essentially all Mormons are taught in Mormonism. Facts aren't important. just as you admitted. Information means nothing when you got goose bumps to determine the direction of your life.

Beside that, your stats are incorrect. Next time, spend time on a church site vice someone's bias opinions for truths.

My facts are correct, and David Stewart is an extremely active LDS apologist who has given talks for FAIR. Insisting that real facts can only be determined from Church sources reveals a willfull intent to be as subjective as possible. And you don't know that Church materials contradict this data anyway. They don't.

[Hemidakota]

Infact he is not correct. Too bad though, I would think you would be brighter than that in not going to the LDS newsroom and check yourself. Just becareful on who you are receiving your facts from.

Also remember, FAIRS is not always accurate and needs a 'grain of salt' when pouring over the material.

[AlexanderX]

Infact he is not correct. Too bad though, I would think you would be brighter than that in not going to the LDS newsroom and check yourself. Just becareful on who you are receiving your facts from.

None of you have presented any factual information. All you have presented is the usual, "no it isn't" response. You asked for data, and I presented. Now you don't like it.

You say the Church newsroom contradicts it? Then provide a link. Why am I the only one who has to back up his statements with verifiable data?

But the fact is Stewart basis his conclusions on data provided by the Church.

Oooops?

The church is not going to advertise its failures in keeping the membership active. I have lived in 5 different countries and have served as the word clerk in two. Church membership figures might look good on paper, but when you compare those numbers to the actual numbers of attendees, it gets miserable. And when you compare it the actual number of tithe payers and temple goers, it gets even worse.

So one might logically ask, if the Church is really the greatest thing in the world, then why do most people in it, leave it? Its like Amway. Tons of people show up to the meetings initially, but then most end up going elsewhere. The Amway reps didn't initially tell the whole story did they? Websites like these serve as sales ads. It isn't going to permit negative information that might preclude a sale.

And that is why so many people are frustrated with the Churh. It isn't because Satan is behind it. That is just a silly cognitive convenience LDS have created for themselves. It adds signifcance to their concept of the Church as well as themselves, but it doesn't explain anything about the miserable activity rates. This is why the Church is not winning the battle. Activity rates and Church growth has plummetted over the past ten years. What is the annual growth rate nowadays, less than 2%? Gone are the days when members were bragging about how the Church was going to have more than 200 million in 50 years. The next Islam, etc. The past ten years have proved detrimental for that theory.

[Hemidakota]

Whoops, I do receive those reports as all those in leadership positions. Too bad! Matter of a fact, have him contact me. I would love to challenge him on his claims.

Also, use search box...you are old enough to find it.

[AlexanderX]

So let me get this straight...

I'm required to provide my homework, and your homework as well?

Sorry, but I'm calling your bluff. If you cannot produce the contradicting data, just say so. Certainly you're old enough for that.